Was the 6.5 cm really a necessity?

[doug b]

But getting back to the 6.5 creedmoor! This is my rifle! This is my resolts!

 

[WildRose]

This is getting way off topic, but I would hate for someone to read this and think that hunting deer with a 223 or 22-250 is a good idea. Can it be done? Sure, but the margins for error get really slim. I guess if I were doing heard management on small southern does or something... But if you are hunting where you may see a heavier bodied buck, want to take a quartering on shot, or just in case your shot placement isn't perfect, a little more energy is the responsible way to go.

Literally tens of thousands of deer and hogs will be killed in Texas every year with .223, .22-250, and .220 Swift.

Put a decent bullet in the right spot and they will drop as quickly and cleanly as if you hit them with a .300 Rum.

 

[TX Badger]

Literally tens of thousands of deer and hogs will be killed in Texas every year with .223, .22-250, and .220 Swift.

Put a decent bullet in the right spot and they will drop as quickly and cleanly as if you hit them with a .300 Rum.

All I wanted to do was insert a disclaimer here incase some less informed person read this and thought a .22 caliber was a good whitetail choice. If someone chooses to do so after reading this, that's on them.

For the record even those of you supporting this are doing so with a lot of hedging. A blacktail broadside at 40 yards sure, that sounds reasonable. Light bodied TX deer, OK. And my favorite back peddling statements "If the shot is in the right place"... a 22 short through the eye or the ear would drop them like a ton of bricks too. That doesn't mean it would be ethical to attempt it. Of course shot placement is important, but I feel I owe it to the animal to give myself more margin for error. Plus this is a long range site. With distance energy energy falls quickly and shot placement is more likely to be less than perfect.

I haven't lost a car in 20 years, but I have hit a couple in the liver that ran 100 yards. If I had shot them with a 22-250 instead of my 7 rem mag or 25-06 would I have got them? Maybe, but I don't want to find out.

And what if a B&C buck walks into my shooting lane and my only shot is quartering on and I have a heavy shoulder to deal with?

If the only rifle you have is a 22-250 or you want to prove that it can be done and you want to wait for a short, perfect broadside shot go ahead. Just don't act like these are ideal deer cartridges they're not.

 

[TX Badger]

Though I meant deer. In the last 20 years I have definitely spent more time searching for my car than a wounded deer...

 

[doug b]

All I wanted to do was insert a disclaimer here incase some less informed person read this and thought a .22 caliber was a good whitetail choice. If someone chooses to do so after reading this, that's on them.

For the record even those of you supporting this are doing so with a lot of hedging. A blacktail broadside at 40 yards sure, that sounds reasonable. Light bodied TX deer, OK. And my favorite back peddling statements "If the shot is in the right place"... a 22 short through the eye or the ear would drop them like a ton of bricks too. That doesn't mean it would be ethical to attempt it. Of course shot placement is important, but I feel I owe it to the animal to give myself more margin for error. Plus this is a long range site. With distance energy energy falls quickly and shot placement is more likely to be less than perfect.

I haven't lost a car in 20 years, but I have hit a couple in the liver that ran 100 yards. If I had shot them with a 22-250 instead of my 7 rem mag or 25-06 would I have got them? Maybe, but I don't want to find out.

And what if a B&C buck walks into my shooting lane and my only shot is quartering on and I have a heavy shoulder to deal with?

If the only rifle you have is a 22-250 or you want to prove that it can be done and you want to wait for a short, perfect broadside shot go ahead. Just don't act like these are ideal deer cartridges they're not.

Nobody here by any means was calling it the perfect round or rounds to do the job. What we were doing was defending the fact that you were discrediting it, and that you thought it should never be done ever, but yet people have been using 3030s to down all sizes of game for decades and decades. Are we going to discredit that history also?

 

[doug b]

Though I meant deer. In the last 20 years I have definitely spent more time searching for my car than a wounded deer...

And at no point an I meaning to argue or attack you. My point is, are they the best rounds for doing the job, well of course not. maybe some people's abilitys are better than others and feel they have more confidence and knowledge of their shooting than others

 

[TX Badger]

You can argue or attack, I won't be offended as long as it's respectful. I don't mind a spirited debate. I definitely attacked the idea of .22s as deer cartridges. I guess in the end it's just difficult for me to understand why someone would choose one of the. 22 cartridges if they had other options.

 

[Rich Coyle]

And at no point an I meaning to argue or attack you. My point is, are they the best rounds for doing the job, well of course not. maybe some people's abilitys are better than others and feel they have more confidence and knowledge of their shooting than others

With this post you are just being argumentive. "Best" is totally subjective. I did penetration testing with 60 grain bullets and they will penetrate right alone with bigger stuff.

 

[TX Badger]

With this post you are just being argumentive. "Best" is totally subjective. I did penetration testing with 60 grain bullets and they will penetrate right alone with bigger stuff.

Ok, I'm open to listening to anything scientific. What bullets, what medium, what bigger stuff?
I'm honestly interested. You see a lot of info on the larger calibers in this type of testing. Not much on. 22

 

[Rich Coyle]

As long as you realize "scientific" is repeatable, not necessarily something tested in a laboratory. It's been a few years since I did this. Ol' John is no longer with us.

June 25, 2005

101 water filled milk jugs were blasted. That's all that would fit into the back of my short bed Chevy. Valid or not, it was fun. I got the idea from Cliff who does one or two occasionally. I decided to spend the whole day doing it.


The following came from Cliff's info. The 25-06 Improved launched a 100
Barnes X at 3,600 and stopped in the sixth water jug. Its weight was 82
grains. From the same rifle shooting the same load into a five point bull
elk, the recovered bullet weighed 82 grains. It entered the left part of the
south end of the north bound elk and was found in front of the right
shoulder. Talk about real world performance! WOW!


Following are the results from Saturday, June 25, 2005 of the one gallon milk jugs filled with water. We set up a 2X6 on some 1X4 legs. In front of that was the Oehler 33, and in front of that was yours truly.

.224 60 grain Solid Base at 3,120. (.223 Rem) In the forth jug. Weighted 13 grains, just the base with a little lead. Took four shots to capture or find one. And yet three shots at deer all exited. The funnest was one shot with the .223 60 grain solid base. Drop at the shot from 222 yards in the woods. Entered at the top of the sternum and exited in front of the diaphragm. I was about 100 feet above it.


.224 60 grain Nosler Partition at 3,118. (.223 Rem) In the forth jug. Weighted 44 grains.


.224 60 grain Nosler Partition at 3,407. (.22-250 Rem) In the sixth jug, but damaged the skin of the seventh. Weighed 44 grains. Notice 50% more penetration with about 10% more velocity.


.224 70 grain Spear 3,438 in the 3rd. Shot again. Same thing. Weighed about 12 grains in flat disc shape. And yet these will go clear through a deer broadside.


.257 100 grain Barnes TTSX 3,520 out the back of the eighth jug. Found three petals in the fifth jug. Lost the bullet in the weeds under the 2X6. Fired again and the bullet went out the back of the sixth at the side and missed the seventh jug.


.308 180 Nosler Partition at 3,112 punctured the skin in the back of the sixth. Weight is 119 grains.


.308 150 Barnes X 3,458 in the sixth 112 grains. This and the .257 above shows why lighter mono-metal bullets are catching on. Same terminal performance with noticeably less recoil. (I have a recoil slide.)


7MM 140 Nosler Partition 3,591. Out the back side of the fifth next one was in the sixth. 92 grains.


7MM 130 G.S.Custom (mono metal) 3,642 in the sixth. Notice this is after a .300 Weatherby. And yet the down pressure of the "wound channel" broke the front 1X4 leg. 88 grains. Put the 2X6 on some 4X4's on the ground. Again we see the solid copper showing why lighter is catching on.


.454 Casull 260 Freedom Arms 1,925 out the side back of the eighth. Shot again out the side back of ninth and damaged the side of the tenth. First five jugs were destroyed. I will use this on my bison hunt in November, if the Lord wills. (The Lord didn't will. I lost my job.) I did shoot through a log to get a buck, though. Second funnest deer I can remember.


.375 300 Nosler Partition (.375-.416 Rem) 2,925 in the seventh. Will take this as back up on the bison hunt. One weighed 232 the other 204.


.375 260 Nosler Partition 2,976 (.375-.416 Rem)in seventh weighed 190


.375 260 Nosler Accubond 2,982 (.375-.416 Rem) in the sixth weighed 160

.375 265 G.S. Custom 3,044 (.375-.416 Rem) out the back side of the seventh. It was laying between the seventh and eighth and weighed 196. Despite this one weighing less than the 300 Nosler, it broke the new Doug Fir 2X6 which was purchased for this project. It produced a spectacular photo. The jugs after the whiteness of the first few are all in a row with a little water squirting out their tops. What makes it so fun is the 2X6 is gone! It was blasted downward clear out of the photo by the water trying to get away from the "wound channel". I don't have any more or they would be going on the buffalo hunt.

John Lachuck (gun writer) photoed every shot, John Ludden (son-in-law) read the Oehler 33 and yours truly shooting big stuff without getting thumped because I use muzzle brakes on everything.

 

[WildRose]

All I wanted to do was insert a disclaimer here incase some less informed person read this and thought a .22 caliber was a good whitetail choice. If someone chooses to do so after reading this, that's on them.

For the record even those of you supporting this are doing so with a lot of hedging. A blacktail broadside at 40 yards sure, that sounds reasonable. Light bodied TX deer, OK. And my favorite back peddling statements "If the shot is in the right place"... a 22 short through the eye or the ear would drop them like a ton of bricks too. That doesn't mean it would be ethical to attempt it. Of course shot placement is important, but I feel I owe it to the animal to give myself more margin for error. Plus this is a long range site. With distance energy energy falls quickly and shot placement is more likely to be less than perfect.

I haven't lost a car in 20 years, but I have hit a couple in the liver that ran 100 yards. If I had shot them with a 22-250 instead of my 7 rem mag or 25-06 would I have got them? Maybe, but I don't want to find out.

And what if a B&C buck walks into my shooting lane and my only shot is quartering on and I have a heavy shoulder to deal with?

If the only rifle you have is a 22-250 or you want to prove that it can be done and you want to wait for a short, perfect broadside shot go ahead. Just don't act like these are ideal deer cartridges they're not.

I'm not doing any back peddling at all. Whether it's a .223 or 375 Rum you still have to put it in the right place or watch your target run off.

The .223, Swift, and 22-250 are fantastic choices to start off kids, women, and anyone else that might have an issue with recoil.

No, I wouldn't suggest any of them the ideal for a 350lbs Canadian wt as a first choice but with a good non frangible bullet they would still get the job done at anything resembling reasonable range for most novice shooters.

The Swift and 22-250 are both also extremely popular with Antelope hunters and extremely capable on them out to 400 yards.

Just don't load them with highly frangible/varmint ammunition and you have a very capable round in both.

I never said they are "ideal deer cartridges" I was very specific in what I said. Like it or not the .223 is the most popular caliber for hog hunters and they are a whole lot tougher than any WT that has ever lived.

 

[WildRose]

Ok, I'm open to listening to anything scientific. What bullets, what medium, what bigger stuff?
I'm honestly interested. You see a lot of info on the larger calibers in this type of testing. Not much on. 22

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...55-grain-tsx-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-20

At up to 300yds the Barnes Vortex 55gr is absolutely deadly on both WT's and Hogs. I've put that round completely through the head of hogs over 300lbs out to that distance.

 

[WildRose]

As long as you realize "scientific" is repeatable, not necessarily something tested in a laboratory. It's been a few years since I did this. Ol' John is no longer with us.

June 25, 2005

101 water filled milk jugs were blasted. That's all that would fit into the back of my short bed Chevy. Valid or not, it was fun. I got the idea from Cliff who does one or two occasionally. I decided to spend the whole day doing it.


The following came from Cliff's info. The 25-06 Improved launched a 100
Barnes X at 3,600 and stopped in the sixth water jug. Its weight was 82
grains. From the same rifle shooting the same load into a five point bull
elk, the recovered bullet weighed 82 grains. It entered the left part of the
south end of the north bound elk and was found in front of the right
shoulder. Talk about real world performance! WOW!


Following are the results from Saturday, June 25, 2005 of the one gallon milk jugs filled with water. We set up a 2X6 on some 1X4 legs. In front of that was the Oehler 33, and in front of that was yours truly.

.224 60 grain Solid Base at 3,120. (.223 Rem) In the forth jug. Weighted 13 grains, just the base with a little lead. Took four shots to capture or find one. And yet three shots at deer all exited. The funnest was one shot with the .223 60 grain solid base. Drop at the shot from 222 yards in the woods. Entered at the top of the sternum and exited in front of the diaphragm. I was about 100 feet above it.


.224 60 grain Nosler Partition at 3,118. (.223 Rem) In the forth jug. Weighted 44 grains.


.224 60 grain Nosler Partition at 3,407. (.22-250 Rem) In the sixth jug, but damaged the skin of the seventh. Weighed 44 grains. Notice 50% more penetration with about 10% more velocity.


.224 70 grain Spear 3,438 in the 3rd. Shot again. Same thing. Weighed about 12 grains in flat disc shape. And yet these will go clear through a deer broadside.


.257 100 grain Barnes TTSX 3,520 out the back of the eighth jug. Found three petals in the fifth jug. Lost the bullet in the weeds under the 2X6. Fired again and the bullet went out the back of the sixth at the side and missed the seventh jug.


.308 180 Nosler Partition at 3,112 punctured the skin in the back of the sixth. Weight is 119 grains.


.308 150 Barnes X 3,458 in the sixth 112 grains. This and the .257 above shows why lighter mono-metal bullets are catching on. Same terminal performance with noticeably less recoil. (I have a recoil slide.)


7MM 140 Nosler Partition 3,591. Out the back side of the fifth next one was in the sixth. 92 grains.


7MM 130 G.S.Custom (mono metal) 3,642 in the sixth. Notice this is after a .300 Weatherby. And yet the down pressure of the "wound channel" broke the front 1X4 leg. 88 grains. Put the 2X6 on some 4X4's on the ground. Again we see the solid copper showing why lighter is catching on.


.454 Casull 260 Freedom Arms 1,925 out the side back of the eighth. Shot again out the side back of ninth and damaged the side of the tenth. First five jugs were destroyed. I will use this on my bison hunt in November, if the Lord wills. (The Lord didn't will. I lost my job.) I did shoot through a log to get a buck, though. Second funnest deer I can remember.


.375 300 Nosler Partition (.375-.416 Rem) 2,925 in the seventh. Will take this as back up on the bison hunt. One weighed 232 the other 204.


.375 260 Nosler Partition 2,976 (.375-.416 Rem)in seventh weighed 190


.375 260 Nosler Accubond 2,982 (.375-.416 Rem) in the sixth weighed 160

.375 265 G.S. Custom 3,044 (.375-.416 Rem) out the back side of the seventh. It was laying between the seventh and eighth and weighed 196. Despite this one weighing less than the 300 Nosler, it broke the new Doug Fir 2X6 which was purchased for this project. It produced a spectacular photo. The jugs after the whiteness of the first few are all in a row with a little water squirting out their tops. What makes it so fun is the 2X6 is gone! It was blasted downward clear out of the photo by the water trying to get away from the "wound channel". I don't have any more or they would be going on the buffalo hunt.

John Lachuck (gun writer) photoed every shot, John Ludden (son-in-law) read the Oehler 33 and yours truly shooting big stuff without getting thumped because I use muzzle brakes on everything.

Thanks for reminding me of the 60gr Nosler Partition, it's another very good choice.

 

[TX Badger]

I've never shot hogs but I'm guessing the fact that people hate them means they are far less concerned about making quick kills/recovering them and 223 ammo is dirt cheap.

Rich, thanks for sharing your testing. I will say I'm impressed with some of those comparisons though it doesn't account for some other concerns like the amount of energy transferred into the animal or the wound channel.

We've hijacked this thread enough. I think we know where everyone stands.