Virgin brass, or once fired!

[SSgt G Cody]

Sgt1K Boys, I'm known for my pickyness with brass specs. I always size my new brass before loading, just so its similar to all my once-fired brass in dimension before loading. Otherwise it will shoot quite differently. After first firing/forming I fully re-size and recondition the brass to my gun's spec, including primer pockets, neck wall thickness, etc. Then I carefully reload, just as with all my other well-used brass. I anneal after each third shooting. For me, the reloads are much more accurate than new brass loaded into original dimension. The new brass groups similarly on first firing And the question was raised as to headspace and bullet tip into lands; Headspace is determined by datum line to shoulder "Pinch" point, which usually grows a couple thousandths per shot, so is corrected in resizing. As to lands, I load to .020" clearance, and never have any problem with it. In the case cited, being short .005" should be insignificant, unless it is normally fully into the lands. Interesting topic. Best of Luck to you all. GC

 

[blvette75]

Something has been bugging me about brass, virgin brass, either processed, or out of the box, versus once fired!
First of all, Butterbean , made mention of it in his thread, MY FIRST TIME, but I want to explore other people's thoughts, and experiences , with accuracy, from virgin brass, versus once fired.
I have had two rifles, in different calibers, that would , with virgin brass, shoot better groups, hands down, then it would with any combination of resizing, or lack of. Full length, partial, neck sized, didn't matter. It shot ok, but no where's near what the virgin did.
Secondly, do you shoot the whole box, or do do take out and shoot through a batch, then start over.
Thoughts and experiences appreciated!
Be safe All!

Not sure if anyone has addressed this but when I first started reloading I had found a load that worked great, then saw that occasionally was getting some spread on groups on my once fired, twice fired. I started check my brass after cleaning it on the inside with a damp q-tip, sure enough on a few of my cartridge casings was residue in few. Started checking them all after that and taking out the ones with residue to get re-cleaned. My issue went away, I am not a mass re-loader by any means my reloading is limited to 20-60 rounds at a session for rifle. But reloading and trying to optimize for accuracy, a lot of information on trouble-shooting on this website.

 

[MagnumManiac]

From the OP
"Something has been bugging me about brass, virgin brass, either processed, or out of the box,"
??????

The OP states, either processed, or straight out of the box...am I missing something or is it you missing something??

Cheers.

 

[ButterBean]

Really, who said no prep and straight from the box?? Definitely not the OP.
I have NEVER used brass straight from the box...dinged up necks will NEVER get a bullet seated in it for my rifles.

I don't know why you think you are the thread POLICE...please stop you are not helpful.

Cheers.

The OP states, either processed, or straight out of the box...am I missing something or is it you missing something??

Cheers.

Ok Bud Which is it gonna be? ....... Asking for a Friend

 

[Tumbleweed]

If you used the base of the case as the datum line and seated the bullet to the same OAL... the jump would be the same regardless of the length of case. Assuming the bearing lengths were within reasonable tolerance of each other.

This is not true. Let's say his virgin brass was .010" shorter from base to shoulder datum than a fireformed case. If you load the virgin case and fireformed case to same OAL...the bullet in the virgin case will be .010" CLOSER to the rifling after the firing pin moves it forward until the shoulder stops it.

 

[LVJ76]

Somewhere in the mix, the whole meaning of this thread got lost. I've loaded and shot for more then 40 years. In that time, with various rifles, brass, loads etc, I've run across this, " PHENOMENON ", on occasion. The load, that was fired, in the virgin brass, was a predetermined load, that the rifle liked, that was simply put together, with virgin brass, sometimes processed, sometimes not.
My question was, and is, have any other members noted that before, what if any thing do you think, is the reason.
Not that you can change it, the brass is now once fired.
It's not about seating depth, headspace, or load data. That's already been determined.
Thsts as clear as I can put it. Sorry if it came out any different!

Got it 7stw and I do have an example like yours, on one of my 7mm-08's I did try out loads on virgin winchester brass and I was not able to duplicate it, I reload it thissame brass and my best group that was cloverleaf under 0.25" went to just under 0.5". I did verify the load with virgin brass again and just could not replicate it. Since then I never tried loads with virgin brass again. Noted I do neck size only.

As I mentioned on my previous post I believe it's because the size of the brass has changed and therefore the pressure as well.

 

[338edge]

Sir

I would recommend you test to see what shoots best for YOU in YOUR rifle, using YOUR reloading tools and processes.

National records and Championships have been won using virgin brass in precision target competitive disciplines.

There's plenty of room for noise and error in reloading, it's worth testing. Suggest developing your powder charge, seating depth using fired brass, and then test that same recipe with virgin in your rifle.

I would recommend focusing on the results on the target, instead of a Chrono, and don't get too hung up on theories regarding what should work, instead focus on what works on the target with your rifle.

I agree 100%

 

[Sockeye66]

Something that I have noticed with virgin Lapua brass is if the case neck isn't brushed well, it seems like the neck tension is greater when it's actually a coating on the inside. I chamfer, scrub, and then neck size virgin Lapua and it shoots very well.

 

[Savage 12BVSS]

I know as a group we are a little more...... "edgy" (is that a good word?) I know I am, just due to the times. With that said these threads are most informative and do tend to take a life of their own at times. I tried to stay with 7STW's actual question and consider why virgin brass would behave differently than once fired chamber formed brass. As a lot of you know I'm super into runout, TIR on case necks and loaded rounds as well. I also can tell you what each of my rifle chambers produce after firing on brass. I have one that seems to produce no neck TIR at all, a lothar walther match bbl. The other four produce varying amounts from 1/4 thousandth's to 1/2 thousandth's when once fired.

I just went down to the reloading area and did some checking on new virgin norma and lapua brass. Now I, like probably everyone else, has noticed that the hundred count brass coming in a plastic bag with no protection produces about 3-6 misshapen case mouths. This is why I size the necks of new brass before ever using, however thats only 3-6% of the total. Now I have never used nosler brass the topic of the comparison, figure in smaller amounts it comes divided off maybe? Might make the out of round case mouths a non issue perhaps. But here's where I learned something I had never checked, doing case TIR on brand new virgin brass, norma registered pretty much zero TIR until I got tired of checking them. Lapua on the other hand averaged about 1/2 thousandth's again on almost everyone. Looking inside the lapua never showed any signs of a flashhole burr or inconsistancy. Norma had about 12 out of a hundred that had less than perfect flashhole's some with partial blockage.

I know it was a long boring read but bottom line, you could easily pick 20 cases of norma and have an almost perfect group of brass for loading. Same pick of lapua and you would have about the same or slightly better than once fired chamber formed brass. Thats honest evaluation of the two brands of virgin brass I have to check. Would love to see how nosler is packed and do the same TIR and inside flashhole inspection on them. That could be some of the reason for the very good accuracy out of virgin brass especially if case pressure also comes into play as well.

 

[Beluebow]

This is not the true. Let's say his virgin brass was .010" shorter from base to shoulder datum than a fireformed case. If you load the virgin case and fireformed case to same OAL...the bullet in the virgin case will be .010" CLOSER to the rifling after the firing pin moves it forward until the shoulder stops it.

Do you know the difference between case length and shoulder datum? I know you do....Apologies to the OP for being off topic again.

 

[Tommy T]

I'm loading for a 30 nosler with 26" barrel but we are having trouble with new and old cases I have tried all type of bullets and no luck as of today I have tried rl 22 -h1000 -4831 powders and still no good grouping has anybody had the same problem ,looking for some advice on bullets or powder thanks .

 

[7stw]

Something that I have noticed with virgin Lapua brass is if the case neck isn't brushed well, it seems like the neck tension is greater when it's actually a coating on the inside. I chamfer, scrub, and then neck size virgin Lapua and it shoots very well.

I have noticed that as well. Sometimes,on the Lapua brass, brand new, the seating resistance, seems a little mushy, but invariably is uniform once fired.

 

[ButterBean]

I know as a group we are a little more...... "edgy" (is that a good word?) I know I am, just due to the times. With that said these threads are most informative and do tend to take a life of their own at times. I tried to stay with 7STW's actual question and consider why virgin brass would behave differently than once fired chamber formed brass. As a lot of you know I'm super into runout, TIR on case necks and loaded rounds as well. I also can tell you what each of my rifle chambers produce after firing on brass. I have one that seems to produce no neck TIR at all, a lothar walther match bbl. The other four produce varying amounts from 1/4 thousandth's to 1/2 thousandth's when once fired.

I just went down to the reloading area and did some checking on new virgin norma and lapua brass. Now I, like probably everyone else, has noticed that the hundred count brass coming in a plastic bag with no protection produces about 3-6 misshapen case mouths. This is why I size the necks of new brass before ever using, however thats only 3-6% of the total. Now I have never used nosler brass the topic of the comparison, figure in smaller amounts it comes divided off maybe? Might make the out of round case mouths a non issue perhaps. But here's where I learned something I had never checked, doing case TIR on brand new virgin brass, norma registered pretty much zero TIR until I got tired of checking them. Lapua on the other hand averaged about 1/2 thousandth's again on almost everyone. Looking inside the lapua never showed any signs of a flashhole burr or inconsistancy. Norma had about 12 out of a hundred that had less than perfect flashhole's some with partial blockage.

I know it was a long boring read but bottom line, you could easily pick 20 cases of norma and have an almost perfect group of brass for loading. Same pick of lapua and you would have about the same or slightly better than once fired chamber formed brass. Thats honest evaluation of the two brands of virgin brass I have to check. Would love to see how nosler is packed and do the same TIR and inside flashhole inspection on them. That could be some of the reason for the very good accuracy out of virgin brass especially if case pressure also comes into play as well.

I got the box of 50ea Nosler brass and they were perfect, That's what started this whole conversation when I let 7stw know what i had done, I'm still amazed to be honest, Thanks for the research

 

[DJ Fergus]

I got the box of 50ea Nosler brass and they were perfect, That's what started this whole conversation when I let 7stw know what i had done, I'm still amazed to be honest, Thanks for the research

Ive always liked Nosler brass and found it to be near perfect in consistency & neck tension while in virgin form more times than not. I know that others have complained about it but I never had a reason to.