A little stumped load development virgin brass vs once fired

[Rflshootr]

This is the third time I've heard from customers telling me that Berger is handing out insane load advice in the last 6 months.

They really need to get reigns on whoever is doing it. They are going to get someone hurt.

When testing this bullet, I hit pressure around 2900fps with almost every powder tested. 3125 is certifiably insane.

That was what I thought to. Initially I was only loading to 56.5gr. Then I also had some Berger 153.5's. Called Berger and they told me 57.0 min to 63.3 max Retumbo, I thought the guy was on Crack called back another day and talked to a different guy he told me the same thing. Told him that the case will not hardly even hold 63.3 he said that it was a compressed load. I actually got to 62gr before pressure signs on the virgin brass. That is when I decided to tried pushing the A-Tips a little more and came up with the 60gr load for both the Bergers and Hornady bullets.

You have to remember...every barrel and every chamber is unique to itself. Every brand of bullet is different. Different weights of bullets are different. Different lots of bullets are different. Lots of powder are different. Brands and lots of primers are different....and if you haven't caught on yet, the same goes for brass. What Berger, Hornady, Hodgdon and everyone in between use for pressure testing....you guessed it... IS DIFFERENT. Conditions are different. Temperatures are different. You MUST ALWAYS start at the bottom and work up slowly. Anytime you change just one component....the results will be different! That also includes Overall Length.

 

[Muddyboots]

Ok, your load is 60.0 of Retumbo with 153 A-Tip, as stated this a 4.0 full grains over max load listed by Hodgdon for the 153 A-Tip. This is in dangerous territory to be 4 grains over any listed load. It doesn't matter what Berger has to say for their 153 in comparison to the 153 A-Tip. Different bullet construction, alloy materials, bearing surfaces, cannot be assumed to be equivalent load data. IMO back off the 153 A-Tip load within established published load data. We all try to gain "little bit" but 4.0 grains is not considered a "little bit". This is at least 7% over published load data and who knows what the actual pressure truly is.

I have always trusted powder load data more than bullet load data. Powder manufacturers are not trying to sell glitzy performance of their bullets. JMO

 

[4thefunofit]

Something Richard Lee mentions in his 2nd edition of Modern Reloading might apply here. According to Mr. Lee, if the case is filled enough to be compressed, it's likely to burn slower than a case having less powder but is not compressed, and produce less pressure (pages 86, 87). This could explain increased pressure if the original load was compressed and the later charge uncompressed the load.

 

[Les in Wyoming]

Unless you are shooting inside, there can also be a difference in what time of year/temperature did you work up your load vs now. I have worked up some great loads before that punch a ragged hole in August, only to have it shoot like crap in November. I didn't know that temperature could have anything to do with it. It just didn't make sense. But it evidently does. Don't know if this is relevant at all to your case.

 

[WildRose]

They are using quickload I believe. At least that is what the tech told me. Not sure they shoot them.

I was given data from them for my 300 RUM and the 245. It seems to be correct. I could not get to the powder charge I was given, but I hit pressure a few grains below it. When I settled on the load, the velocity was still above their top end given with less powder.
I think in this case they were using Norma brass for the QL workup, I was using Rem and ADG.

Then they need to pull that CS guy off of the line and off of the phones until he learns to properly run QL before he gets someone hurt.

 

[WildRose]

I did not know that. I was just working up a load for my 300 wsm using new ADG brass. Never saw any pressure signs on the brass, but felt a slightly heavier bolt lift across the last grain and a half up to the published max.

My results of OCW were all screwy, probably because it was new brass. So now I've fire formed all 100 that I'm going to use.

Are you suggesting that I start over and repeat everything, including the pressure test starting from minimum to see if I have signs now that my brass is once fired?

You won't see pressure signs until you have already far exceeded safe pressures.

Most of us think we're safe seeing none or only seeing minor pressure signs but in truth by that point we're already putting ourselves, our guns, and anyone who's close by when we're shooting at substantial risk.

 

[Chesterrose79]

Typically the process of fire forming virgin brass will absorb some energy. If you were to test pressure on loads that are safely below max pressure with virgin vs once fired typically you would also notice fire forming will zap some velocity as well.

 

[Mikecr]

Typically the process of fire forming virgin brass will absorb some energy. If you were to test pressure on loads that are safely below max pressure with virgin vs once fired typically you would also notice fire forming will zap some velocity as well.

You're right. His velocity was only higher because he kept going up in charges.
It really is important learning

 

[milboltnut]

You won't see pressure signs until you have already far exceeded safe pressures.

Most of us think we're safe seeing none or only seeing minor pressure signs but in truth by that point we're already putting ourselves, our guns, and anyone who's close by when we're shooting at substantial risk.

not true at all. Even though he has gone 4 grains over doesn't mean that when you will start to see pressure signs.

 

[WildRose]

not true at all.

Yes it's completely true, that's why you can in some cases run over pressure loads with no discernable pressure signs.

Now that you have your benchmark, you're ready to look for pressure signs. Keep in mind that there are no absolutes when it comes to pressure signs. There are exceptions to every rule, and some calibers/firearms may exhibit no pressure signs until catastrophic case failure. Often times, something that looks like a pressure sign can be caused by excessive headspace, or by a problem with the firearm. If you suspect excessive pressure, stop firing until you determine what is wrong.

Reading Pressure Signs – Florida Reloading

www.floridareloading.com

 

[milboltnut]

not 4 grains over especially Retumbo ! Basically you're telling this guy not to check for pressure signs otherwise. Think it's best you should back out of your statement ! And do yourself a favor and not quote part of what I said

 

[WildRose]

not true at all. Even though he has gone 4 grains over doesn't mean that when you will start to see pressure signs.

Nice edit but you're not going to dig your way out of the "Not True at All". Statement.

So-Called Pressure Signs

Another common belief involves so-called pressure signs, where fired cases (or the rifle) show indications of distress with increasing powder charges. The signs include stiff bolt lift, loose primer pockets, "excessively" flattened primers, and ejector-hole marks on the case head. If none of these signs appear, the load is supposedly safe in the rifle. Unfortunately, they can all occur long before pressures reach normal levels and sometimes fail to appear even when pressures are way over normal.

Reloading Myths for Rifle Cartridges - Shooting Times

Some rifle handloading knowledge has become so ingrained that we rarely question it, even though it may not be true or it was once true but no longer applies.

www.shootingtimes.com

When it's this obvious you don't know what you're talking about it's probably time to stop.

 

[WildRose]

not 4 grains over especially Retumbo ! Basically you're telling this guy not to check for pressure signs otherwise. Think it's best you should back out of your statement ! And do yourself a favor and not quote part of what I said

You are not lying to cover for your own faults.

There was no partial quote, you added the rest when you edited long after I had posted the quote.

! Basically you're telling this guy not to check for pressure signs otherwise

No I'm not. I'm saying if you're that far over book you've already exceeded safe pressures whether you see pressure signs or not.

 

[milboltnut]

I don't think so ! Going back doesn't change the fact the fact that it's not good for you to tell somebody what your saying PERIOD. My edit doesn't change that fact that you are COMPLETELY wrong for saying there are not pressure sign until way over max charges !

How about it depends on what powder speed you're using. Your info is too general. You need to get back to the basics