Virgin brass, or once fired!

[thwatson2]

I have found that my fire formed brass shoots better. But then again I only get 1 shot out of virgin brass to compare. I only neck size it and anneal every 3rd shot. In my straight cases 45-110 and 4-70 I anneal every shot and don't size them at all, just a tiny expansion. As far as trimming, all cartridges require it but only when I need to do it. The interesting thing about reloading is the intricacie.

 

[parshal]

The replies here certainly give a lot to think about and have created a lot of questions for me. I run a mandrel in new brass and start load development immediately. I'll shoot through the whole lot and then tweak the load if needs tweaking. It usually doesn't. But, I do recall having a barrel that shot virgin brass better than subsequent firings.

The comments about seating depth changing are interesting. With Wilson seating dies and an arbor press I can see measured differences in CBTO of a couple .001" at times. I just can't wrap my head around the best load having a seating depth tolerance within .005". It so close to the margin of error of our equipment. I'd rather be shooting than fighting thousandths. A .005" seating depth difference shouldn't produce a dramatic difference on the target unless you're a benchrest shooter, IMO.

The comments about pressure changing from virgin to fired brass is also interesting. I fireform brass for the 22 Creed from 22-250 brass. That's a pressure change. If a load changes dramatically from factory to fireformed brass due to the pressure difference I'd say that load isn't in the node.

I guess we should qualify what we're talking about here, though. Are we talking about virgin brass shooting .2's and fireformed shooting in the .7's? Or, are we talking .010's?

 

[Plinker147]

Sometimes you se a difference and sometimes you don't. Varies from gun to gun a little. Why? I would assume slight volume change in the brass but I never measured.

Biggest thing I see is there can be an FPS change from virgin to once fired. Small change, won't be noticed shooting 100-300 groups but it will be noticed shooting 900yards. I've learned it's best to do you load developing on once fired. Just removes another variable.

 

[19elkhunter51]

Okay, this is my .02 cents. I find that ALL my rifles shoot way more accurately with once fired reloaded brass. I don't believe I have ever had virgin brass shoot as well as any of my once fired brass. Now full disclosure. I am 69 years old and don't have the memory like I used to.
When I was less well off than I am now, I could not afford to just buy virgin brass. I would buy factory loaded ammunition and then use the once fired brass to reload. I always did the prep work before I loaded the once fired brass, mostly trimming to make sure I had a good OAL.

 

[Paper boy]

Something has been bugging me about brass, virgin brass, either processed, or out of the box, versus once fired!
First of all, Butterbean , made mention of it in his thread, MY FIRST TIME, but I want to explore other people's thoughts, and experiences , with accuracy, from virgin brass, versus once fired.
I have had two rifles, in different calibers, that would , with virgin brass, shoot better groups, hands down, then it would with any combination of resizing, or lack of. Full length, partial, neck sized, didn't matter. It shot ok, but no where's near what the virgin did.
Secondly, do you shoot the whole box, or do do take out and shoot through a batch, then start over.
Thoughts and experiences appreciated!
Be safe All!

First, I am assuming you rifle is a bolt gun. Second, where or through what kind of firearm were they fired from, and third, areb they really "Once Fired"

This is how I see it. If your expecting to reload the "Once fired" rember, it's on it's second go around, (maybe). Next, I am an advocate of fire forming brass in the rifle it is intended for. The next issue is, has the used brass already cut to length? Every time brass is fired it streatches out a bit. Where the elongation comes from is an over all thining of the case, now, you may need to cut it again. This continued thinning increases case volume which also throws off you load data.
I use Peterson, Lupua and ADG only. You would think I was spending far too much. Absolutley NOT. The best deal in new brass is Peterson. Great brass at a fair price. Lapua and ADG are over priced some what but lets look at this way. I always full length size my brass. I know how many time they were resized because I did it. I also use Lee collet dies (cheap, about $26 per caliber) this keeps the necks uniform, I clean MY once fired in a fluid tumbler with stainless pins and clean the primer pockets with a brush. I know it is a lot of work, but.
With Peterson, Lapua, and ADG I am getting between 8, to as many as 15 reloads on my "too expensive brass"

Overall, it costs me LESS than using once fired brass. About 30% by the numbers. keep this in mind. The cheapest way often costs more.

 

[Paper boy]

Shooting new brass is not "OnceFired" cause you fired them. I incorrectly thought you were buying one fired. Sorry for that.

 

[Oldtime Shooter13]

When I purchase a new rifle in a new caliber I will usually purchase a 10 boxes of same lot number factory ammunition. This is clearly depending on purchase price!

I will use this factory ammo to break in the bore and get once fired brass for load development. Sometimes it is much more cost effective to buy factory ammo depending on what you want for brass. I purchased a 6.5 Creedmoor a couple of years back. I was able to purchase same lot of factory Hornady American Whitetail 129gr ammo. I shopped around and purchased 10 box lot shipped off Gun broker for around $160. Keep in mind that I am breaking in a new rifle. I never load virgin brass without backing off charge to minimum. So in my case to break in a new rifle, much more cost effective.

Bonus is that I have 200 rounds of once fired brass fire formed to the chamber. If you must have Norma or Lapua brass, your first firing no matter what will be just that, Fire Forming brass to your chamber.

 

[RYEWSKY25284]

Something has been bugging me about brass, virgin brass, either processed, or out of the box, versus once fired!
First of all, Butterbean , made mention of it in his thread, MY FIRST TIME, but I want to explore other people's thoughts, and experiences , with accuracy, from virgin brass, versus once fired.
I have had two rifles, in different calibers, that would , with virgin brass, shoot better groups, hands down, then it would with any combination of resizing, or lack of. Full length, partial, neck sized, didn't matter. It shot ok, but no where's near what the virgin did.
Secondly, do you shoot the whole box, or do do take out and shoot through a batch, then start over.
Thoughts and experiences appreciated!
Be safe All!

Something I do may put me in the minority here. I treat virgin brass as if I'm fire forming for a wild cat.

I use a light load of RED DOT (usually about45-50% of case capacity) fill the rest of the case with COW
leaving just enough room to put a paraffin wax plug in the neck.
Start shoot'n... take your time, keep checking the BBL to make sure it doesn't heat up.
Now your have some good fire formed brass.
Saved your barrel life, saved bullets, and saved that precious hard to find powder.

hope this helps

 

[Blue Ridge Rifleman]

Bill your explanation was spot on.. It just makes you start to contemplate a lot of things.. I have a 6.5 Gap 4 s that shot lights out with virgin brass and not so much with reloads.. Makes a lot of sense to me now that I think about it. The seating adjustments will need to be done once you have some fired brass I guess. Probably the reason some people get turnkey guns that shoot ok with new ammo and then struggle after the fact to reload and get the rifle to shoot. But like it was mentioned it may not affect some rifles to much at all..

dxlbaile, et al: You're right, this really has me thinking about seating depth on my reloads. I think I'll try moving seating depth out by the amount of headspace in new brass as a starting point. Tell me if you agree, but this is probably much less an issue, if an issue at all, with belted cartridges.

 

[Arkansasdad]

Something has been bugging me about brass, virgin brass, either processed, or out of the box, versus once fired!
First of all, Butterbean , made mention of it in his thread, MY FIRST TIME, but I want to explore other people's thoughts, and experiences , with accuracy, from virgin brass, versus once fired.
I have had two rifles, in different calibers, that would , with virgin brass, shoot better groups, hands down, then it would with any combination of resizing, or lack of. Full length, partial, neck sized, didn't matter. It shot ok, but no where's near what the virgin did.
Secondly, do you shoot the whole box, or do do take out and shoot through a batch, then start over.
Thoughts and experiences appreciated!
Be safe All!

Most of the guys I know that shoot matches always shoot once-fired and not over 3 times fired brass. When a new lot of brass is bought they load with oatmeal, sawdust, cornmeal and etc. over 25 grains of Red Dot and cap with melted paraffin then shoot from the chamber and barrel intended. It is an extra process but no one wants to shoot with virgin brass at a match. Happy shooting.

 

[blueprairiedog]

This is what gets me, in most of everything that I've owned, custom chamber included, MY best accuracy came from once fired, or twice fired.
On a whim, I loaded some ammo, for my 7-08 the other day, (Lapua), didn't process it. Primed, charged, and seated. Haven't shot it yet, wind has been crazy here.
Do you all process virgin brass, or wait until first firing. The premium brass, usually dosent need much anyway. ????????

I size it then trim it flash hole and neck turn before hand so that everything is the same

 

[DJ Fergus]

I have worked up loads with virgin brass and done well. I have also worked up loads off of once fired factory ammunition and done well with that like wise. At the end of the day, if you work up a load for virgin brass, you very well may have to rework your load for once fired. My best of luck with once fired brass has been when it came from once fired factory ammo from the particular rifle I'm working with. That's just my findings. YMMV

 

[blueprairiedog]

Wow, that's impressive as well.

338 rum fired nosler brass 3 shots at 100

 

[DJ Fergus]

First, I am assuming you rifle is a bolt gun. Second, where or through what kind of firearm were they fired from, and third, areb they really "Once Fired"

This is how I see it. If your expecting to reload the "Once fired" rember, it's on it's second go around, (maybe). Next, I am an advocate of fire forming brass in the rifle it is intended for. The next issue is, has the used brass already cut to length? Every time brass is fired it streatches out a bit. Where the elongation comes from is an over all thining of the case, now, you may need to cut it again. This continued thinning increases case volume which also throws off you load data.
I use Peterson, Lupua and ADG only. You would think I was spending far too much. Absolutley NOT. The best deal in new brass is Peterson. Great brass at a fair price. Lapua and ADG are over priced some what but lets look at this way. I always full length size my brass. I know how many time they were resized because I did it. I also use Lee collet dies (cheap, about $26 per caliber) this keeps the necks uniform, I clean MY once fired in a fluid tumbler with stainless pins and clean the primer pockets with a brush. I know it is a lot of work, but.
With Peterson, Lapua, and ADG I am getting between 8, to as many as 15 reloads on my "too expensive brass"

Overall, it costs me LESS than using once fired brass. About 30% by the numbers. keep this in mind. The cheapest way often costs more.

Thumbs up on the Lee Collet die.