Too much gun?

[yobuck]

Long range in the east is usually 400 yds or less. Terrain has a lot to do with this factor, unless you have a bean field or a power or gas line right of way. Long range to me is how far you can shoot and make hits accurately. 7mm rem mag and 300 winnie are popular in my neck of the woods. So are the old favorites 270, 243, 308, 30/06 and others.
Soo this site attracts a variety of shooters, from different backgrounds. Shooting at the local gun club at 800 yds is long range to me.

Well that would depend on where you hunt in the east. There are in fact quite a few places where 400 would be considered a close shot. And those are the type places most of the "serious" long range hunting takes place in the east.
Unlike other parts of the country, "most" long range hunters there don't move about while hunting, but go to a preselected location offering long shooting opportunities and then set up to glass. So it could be that over there starts at 400 yds and goes on out to 8 or 9 hundred. But then that other hill over there starts at about 8 hundred and goes on out to maybe 12 or 13 or even further. So it could very well mean a 400 or a 12 hundred yd shot opportunity from the same place.
So it isn't at all like going to a range and picking the distance you prefer shooting that day with whatever gun you brought along.
The animal picks the distance, and you need to have the right gun along regardless of where that happens to be.
Note I did say most, as there are some also who might just hop scotch from one place to another, usually in a vehicle, and usually just early and late in the day. If they see a legal deer they shoot, if not they drive on to the next spot and check that out. These are as a rule the type that would use the same gun they carry around in the woods for the remainder of the day, and would be apt to consider 400 yds a long shot.
The NC region of PA is where the vast majority of serious long range hunting takes place in the entire eastern part of the country. That because the steep mountainous terrain with many thousands of acres of public land supports it. Fifty years ago, the then wildcat 6.5x300 Weatherby would no doubt have been the most popular cartridge used there. Today, I doubt very much you would be finding any 6.5 cartridge being used there for ridge to ridge hunting. Beyond that, each year seems to have more of the larger cartridges like the large 30s and 338s being used. All you need do is to sit behind them and watch as they sail across those windy valleys to understand why that is.
Did we come here to hunt, or did we come here to fool around?
Make up your mind that there are lots of untold stories involving distance and smaller cartridges.
Not many guys are gonna pull the plug on a shot opportunity they should have passed on because of their gun. Especially since the internet is full of the wonderfull things you can do with even a 243 at long range.

 

[deerhunt01]

Too much gun to me is when your load causes unnecessary meat damage during the kill on your quarry.

This baseline flexes on multi species hunts do to various energy needs per animal:

An example is let's say 28 Nosler on a whitetail doe at 23 yards May be too much gun if it results in unnecessary meat loss on what is in your opinion the ideal shot. For LRH this really becomes less and less a practical question. I think it's most often a useful consideration when pelt hunting. Too much gun is when it ruins pelts.

Something traveling slower at time of expansion very well may give you the same kill quality and more final product.

You just said my thoughts exactly when there is too much meat damage or loss you are too gun for the kill.

 

[Playtimefun]

Yobuck.... very well put.

Up here in Saskatchewan you have some options of your going to sit on the edge of this field and something sooner or later will show and be prepared for "the" shot which can range from a little to a lot. Or you can be driving back roads, glassing and you may get close or you may be sitting a long ways away.

It may be dead flat prairies or your walking coulies like crazy.

The animal picks the distance and you better be prepared...

 

[wilkup]

Well that would depend on where you hunt in the east. There are in fact quite a few places where 400 would be considered a close shot. And those are the type places most of the "serious" long range hunting takes place in the east.
Unlike other parts of the country, "most" long range hunters there don't move about while hunting, but go to a preselected location offering long shooting opportunities and then set up to glass. So it could be that over there starts at 400 yds and goes on out to 8 or 9 hundred. But then that other hill over there starts at about 8 hundred and goes on out to maybe 12 or 13 or even further. So it could very well mean a 400 or a 12 hundred yd shot opportunity from the same place.
So it isn't at all like going to a range and picking the distance you prefer shooting that day with whatever gun you brought along.
The animal picks the distance, and you need to have the right gun along regardless of where that happens to be.
Note I did say most, as there are some also who might just hop scotch from one place to another, usually in a vehicle, and usually just early and late in the day. If they see a legal deer they shoot, if not they drive on to the next spot and check that out. These are as a rule the type that would use the same gun they carry around in the woods for the remainder of the day, and would be apt to consider 400 yds a long shot.
The NC region of PA is where the vast majority of serious long range hunting takes place in the entire eastern part of the country. That because the steep mountainous terrain with many thousands of acres of public land supports it. Fifty years ago, the then wildcat 6.5x300 Weatherby would no doubt have been the most popular cartridge used there. Today, I doubt very much you would be finding any 6.5 cartridge being used there for ridge to ridge hunting. Beyond that, each year seems to have more of the larger cartridges like the large 30s and 338s being used. All you need do is to sit behind them and watch as they sail across those windy valleys to understand why that is.
Did we come here to hunt, or did we come here to fool around?
Make up your mind that there are lots of untold stories involving distance and smaller cartridges.
Not many guys are gonna pull the plug on a shot opportunity they should have passed on because of their gun. Especially since the internet is full of the wonderfull things you can do with even a 243 at long range.

I was completely unaware there was so much public land in the northeast. I was under the impression hunting from a stand at the deer lease was the only option for shooting deer anywhere east of the Rockies lol
You did a great of explaining your method. I may have to try that out this next season. I will typically pick a spot to glass from but then stalk in as close as I can get once game is spotted. May even be a good excuse for a bigger rifle

 

[Playtimefun]

You just said my thoughts exactly when there is too much meat damage or loss you are too gun for the kill.

So I am going to play devils advocate here... just cause you gotta have fun lol

When is the damage the result of "too big of a gun" versus a "smaller" gun with a poor choice of bullets??

Now I am not talking about using a 338 edge on a grouse. Because I can speak from experience... when you step over a log and **** near into the tail feathers of a grouse and then it flies into a tree 4 feet from you. Just far enough that the barrel of the lever action 30-30 in your hand won't hit it... there is nothing left even with a 30-30!!!!

 

[Alibiiv]

So I am going to play devils advocate here... just cause you gotta have fun lol

When is the damage the result of "too big of a gun" versus a "smaller" gun with a poor choice of bullets??

Now I am not talking about using a 338 edge on a grouse. Because I can speak from experience... when you step over a log and ---- near into the tail feathers of a grouse and then it flies into a tree 4 feet from you. Just far enough that the barrel of the lever action 30-30 in your hand won't hit it... there is nothing left even with a 30-30!!!!

I left grouse tail feathers on the ground one day when I "thought" I was going to shoot the head of a grouse off for dinner with my.350 RemMag from 15 feet. It was a great idea until the bird decided it was time to find a tree to land in . It was an easy shot until it decided to fly as the rifle touched off.

 

[35 Whelen]

You just said my thoughts exactly when there is too much meat damage or loss you are too gun for the kill.

What a lot of people that have never used .338 Win. Mag., .35 Whelen, ect. is that even though they were made for large game and poke large holes the speed at witch they travel witch is not slow, will not create the hydraulic shock that smaller faster rounds do and there for the medium bores have no more and some times less meat damage.

 

[nmbarta]

My daughter ruined more meat on her antelope with her .243 than I did on mine with my .375 cheytac. She hit bone and I didn't. Shot placement has more to do with meat loss than anything else. You can kill a whitetail doe with a 50 bmg at 20 yards and not loose but a handful of meat, and I don't mean head/neck shots. Just shoot them behind the shoulder, not in the shoulder, and shoot for the lower half of the kill zone, unless your into whitetail ribs, there's nothing to ruin. You can punch a 6" hole all the way through and not mess up anything that most people eat.
Rabbits are a different story.

 

[Playtimefun]

My daughter ruined more meat on her antelope with her .243 than I did on mine with my .375 cheytac. She hit bone and I didn't. Shot placement has more to do with meat loss than anything else. You can kill a whitetail doe with a 50 bmg at 20 yards and not loose but a handful of meat, and I don't mean head/neck shots. Just shoot them behind the shoulder, not in the shoulder, and shoot for the lower half of the kill zone, unless your into whitetail ribs, there's nothing to ruin. You can punch a 6" hole all the way through and not mess up anything that most people eat.
Rabbits are a different story.

EXACTLY!!!!

and a decent bullet that can handle the impact velocity and you are 100% right.

 

[Deleted member 102985]

I have guided many hunters for Western big game for 30+ years. I see more and more hunters showing up with what I say is not enough gun. I always try to get my customers as close as possible to make a clean kill. Some factors I see often are out of shape hunters who cannot get over the next Hill to close the distance. I agree fully that proper placement,bullet type and range are key but last season I had a customer with a 6.5 who was out of breath, excited and made a shot on a big bull at 212 yards. Due to most of these factors he hit it a few inches too far back. After 7 hours of tracking we finally recovered the bull. The next day my son shot one with a Shiloh sharps 45-70 at 663 yards 1 shot DRT. But even his shot was a bit too far back but still dropped it. I still say why not bring a bit more gun than you think you need but make sure the shooter is capable of what they are attempting to pull off. When you add in adrenaline, fatigue, excitement, and a rapidly changing situation why not have a bit more to help compensate for these factors and others like mild crosswinds as well.in a perfect senario you can kill elk and deer with a 223 but are you willing to put your success all on that one perfect situation and risk going home with tag soup? I have seen many animals taken with the old reliables that we're not so perfect of a shot a 30-06,270,308 and many others will still in my opinion, help to correct slight imperfections no matter what they are. That being said I love to hunt with many calibers in the 6mm,6.5 7mm. But for long range shots I still go with my 300 Lapua or 338 edge. This year I took my biggest bull to date at 1263 yards. If I had my 6.5x47 Lapua I would have watched that bull walk away. When I got up to him I had no meat loss except for a busted rib a hole through the lungs, and a pass thru hole in the hide. I say hunt with what you are comfortable with but when my customers draw blood that's their animal recovered or not.

 

[deerhunt01]

So I am going to play devils advocate here... just cause you gotta have fun lol

When is the damage the result of "too big of a gun" versus a "smaller" gun with a poor choice of bullets??

Now I am not talking about using a 338 edge on a grouse. Because I can speak from experience... when you step over a log and ---- near into the tail feathers of a grouse and then it flies into a tree 4 feet from you. Just far enough that the barrel of the lever action 30-30 in your hand won't hit it... there is nothing left even with a 30-30!!!!

lol alright I would say striking the right balance is important a big gun shooting a heavier bullet and a small gun shooting a lighter faster bullet would both get the Job done however In any given caliber/cartridge, there are choices in bullet weight. As a rule, the bigger and tougher the game, the heavier your bullet should be. This is because mass enhances penetration and holds more energy.
You are absolutely,correct - which is why you never point a gun at anything you do not intend to kill immediately. A .22LR is lethal, as is a .458 magnum elephant round. There are 2 practical caveats, shot placement and incapacitation speed.
A .22 bullet that hits you in the big toe might not kill you unless you die from a wound infection; if it hits you in the brain through an eye socket, you will likely die much faster. That's the shot placement issue or go with a heavier recoil gun that is more lethal. Again, these issues bear on the lethality of the weapon/shooter in combination.

 

[Alibiiv]

I have guided many hunters for Western big game for 30+ years. I see more and more hunters showing up with what I say is not enough gun. I always try to get my customers as close as possible to make a clean kill. Some factors I see often are out of shape hunters who cannot get over the next Hill to close the distance. I agree fully that proper placement,bullet type and range are key but last season I had a customer with a 6.5 who was out of breath, excited and made a shot on a big bull at 212 yards. Due to most of these factors he hit it a few inches too far back. After 7 hours of tracking we finally recovered the bull. The next day my son shot one with a Shiloh sharps 45-70 at 663 yards 1 shot DRT. But even his shot was a bit too far back but still dropped it. I still say why not bring a bit more gun than you think you need but make sure the shooter is capable of what they are attempting to pull off. When you add in adrenaline, fatigue, excitement, and a rapidly changing situation why not have a bit more to help compensate for these factors and others like mild crosswinds as well.in a perfect senario you can kill elk and deer with a 223 but are you willing to put your success all on that one perfect situation and risk going home with tag soup? I have seen many animals taken with the old reliables that we're not so perfect of a shot a 30-06,270,308 and many others will still in my opinion, help to correct slight imperfections no matter what they are. That being said I love to hunt with many calibers in the 6mm,6.5 7mm. But for long range shots I still go with my 300 Lapua or 338 edge. This year I took my biggest bull to date at 1263 yards. If I had my 6.5x47 Lapua I would have watched that bull walk away. When I got up to him I had no meat loss except for a busted rib a hole through the lungs, and a pass thru hole in the hide. I say hunt with what you are comfortable with but when my customers draw blood that's their animal recovered or not.

Thank you for posting this reply. This is one of the most honest, common sense responses that I have read from a person who is out there experiencing the realities of hunting. Being out of breath is a common variable that is oftentimes left out of the equation when taking a shot in a hunting scenario. I was a firearms instructor for 12 years, one of the trainings was to get the recruits pumped up before they started shooting so that had a sense of what it was like to run up stairs or run a distance before having to make a shot. I am ole school (sometimes condemned) however there's nothing wrong with the .270, .308 and 30-06 to get the job done. The .270 and .308 are a little milder on the shoulder. The 6.5-06, .338-06, 300WinMag, 300 Weatherby are long range contenders left out for one of the new designer cartridges that are being promoted my ammunition and firearms manufacturers. If a hunter is not recoil sensitive and can accurately shoot the heavier cartridges, then by all means that is what they ought to be hunting with.

 

[Aoudad shooter1975]

I would be on of the guys in the too much gun camp. I will agree I see too much gun as someone who cannot handle the caliber they are shooting.

I fell under the spell of heavier calibers early in life--for a lot of different reasons mostly due to an old rancher that I grew up near that was a reloading fool and loved the 358 winchester.

I grew up in western Texas where everyone carried a "varmint rifle" in there truck-- on their dash,or between front seats. They usually consisted of a mix of 222/223/22-250, 243 the odd 25-06. Most of the ranchers used them for everything--not because they were the right caliber but handy available and flat shooting. We also had a lot of folks that would "come in" to hunt--these travelers would bring the new fad rifle into hunt--and a few--not all-- could not shoot to save their life. Most of these were some magnum. I remember being about 8 and we had some guys leasing one of our properties. He had a 300 weatherby. I remember seeing the bullet--it looked like a cannon. Was it for west Texas mule deer? well not really the caliber does a lot of things well flat shooting, hard hitting and we have to remember--the guy did not have the same opportunity that I did as I lived there and shots could be long, and conditions not perfect and he did not get to comeback when he wanted. He wounded a nice buck that week--and we helped him find it..looking back he just was not practiced with his arm--funny as I have that some problem today as I don't get to shoot like I use to with family commitments and business travel.

When I started to shoot longer ranges about 10 years ago. I fell under the spell of heavy caliber and heavy for caliber bullets--easier to get to shoot in windy conditions and with a good muzzle brake easy to tolerate. I found the 338s and I have never looked back. I own a 338 win, 338 RCM, 338 Norma. with 230/250 grain bullets they buck the wind great and carry a good punch when they get there.

Another reason I like large bore cartridges, I have hunted all over southern Africa and for shooting big game nothing beats a heavy bullet with a big diameter. My first safari I took two rifles--a 308 and a 9.3x62. My scope took a crap the second day with the 308 and I used the 9.3x62 the rest of the time--it did great...I have taken a 375 HH and or RUM as my "light" gun on my other hunts and has handled everything from impala and bushbuck to cape buffalo. I shot a waterbuck at a little over 300 meters with a 375 RUM--and boy did it do the job!!!

I could write a book talking about why I like heavier calibers--but there will always be the other side--the light caliber boys and their points...In a nutshell a practiced hand is deadly with his tool--and most tools offer adequate power for what we do....If I had to do it with one tool and thank goodness I don't...Id do it with a 338 magnum of some type.

 

[Playtimefun]

Since you mention heavy calibres....

I remember a friend who was in the military and they were on tank maneuvers and low and behold a whitetail doe was standing out a ways and the way he told it was that one of the guys goes.... be really nice to have some fresh venison for supper (something around those lines)

It was a one shot kill!!!!!!

They set it to explode (not sure on the logistics of how they do this) but the shockwave killed the deer.

He said no blood damage or wasted meat, and he laughingly said.... the meat was incredible tender lol.

So I guess a tank round may not be considered too big????

Little cumbersome to carry in the mountains but might just be the perfect gun in the prairies lol.