He has Titanium actions?
Titanium actions
- Thread starter Westernhuntr
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
ntsqd
Well-Known Member
I've not looked, do the mfg's of CM & SS actions post strength testing results for their designs in those materials?
Like the discussion about using 17-4PH for barrels, it's all in knowing what the metal needs to be able to work with it effectively. Proper Speeds, Feeds, Depths of Cut, and a correct for the metal coolant/cutting fluid are required. Miss on any of these variables and you're going to hate working with that metal.
A very long time ago Merlin bicycles, who made Ti bicycle frames nearly exclusively, had posted a white paper about Ti's interactions with various chemicals. One of the major no-no's is to use chlorine based solvents, like most brake cleaners, on titanium. It penetrates the metal and forms a titanium-chloride salt *inside* the metal. You can not see it, but the resulting material is literally mush. I had saved the paper, but in the intervening 5 or 6 HD replacements it has been lost. I have in the past collaborated the article independently, so should someone be interested enough to research it I'm sure that it can be done again.
Like the discussion about using 17-4PH for barrels, it's all in knowing what the metal needs to be able to work with it effectively. Proper Speeds, Feeds, Depths of Cut, and a correct for the metal coolant/cutting fluid are required. Miss on any of these variables and you're going to hate working with that metal.
A very long time ago Merlin bicycles, who made Ti bicycle frames nearly exclusively, had posted a white paper about Ti's interactions with various chemicals. One of the major no-no's is to use chlorine based solvents, like most brake cleaners, on titanium. It penetrates the metal and forms a titanium-chloride salt *inside* the metal. You can not see it, but the resulting material is literally mush. I had saved the paper, but in the intervening 5 or 6 HD replacements it has been lost. I have in the past collaborated the article independently, so should someone be interested enough to research it I'm sure that it can be done again.
epags
Well-Known Member
Thoughts: I worked for Sikorsky and titanium is used for parts of the gear box. There is a mix of different materials yet the birds still fly. That aside, stainless steel when first introduced for fire arms was " no good" because it galled now there are handguns and rifles made of SS. Ditto for "plastic" guns like the Glock when first introduced now look around. Suspect new materials mean new approaches to manufacturing that have to be worked out.
Doesn't answer the OP's issue but just wanted to add my 0.25 USD.
Doesn't answer the OP's issue but just wanted to add my 0.25 USD.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
As said before, Titanium is very strong but as far as I know they all have stainless or chrome molly bolts. So this tells me there is a problem with wear or shear strength. Titanium is 40% lighter that steel but if you weigh the action only you haven't saved that much. It "is" beautiful and impervious to almost any thing corrosive.
There are ways to lighten bolts but again the cost becomes a factor. It is easy to save the few ounces in other areas if that is your goal but if you want a Titanium action by all means buy one. I have an all Titanium 44 special that only has steel in the barrel insert and the trigger assembly and it is extremely light but kicks like a mule. so it has many uses but apparently not for all parts. The manufacture has discontinued this pistol and now makes a replacement with very few Titanium parts. where strength is required but not in high wear areas.
J E CUSTOM
There are ways to lighten bolts but again the cost becomes a factor. It is easy to save the few ounces in other areas if that is your goal but if you want a Titanium action by all means buy one. I have an all Titanium 44 special that only has steel in the barrel insert and the trigger assembly and it is extremely light but kicks like a mule. so it has many uses but apparently not for all parts. The manufacture has discontinued this pistol and now makes a replacement with very few Titanium parts. where strength is required but not in high wear areas.
J E CUSTOM
John Klingenberg
Well-Known Member
I love working with titanium in lots of projects. The idea that it's hard on tooling can be exaggerated. Inserts for tooling are expensive no matter what's it's made of and get replaced a lot for precise work. Old inserts get relegated to rough cut use. In my opinion you replace carbide and tungsten bits for harder steel just as often. You just have to use the "right" coated tooling that's made for TI. It cuts smooth and the finish work is easy. One thing TI does do, if you have any backlash or slop in your machinery it shows on the finish. TI is also what's called a memory metal. Any stretching or distortion, it wants to go back to its original shape when not under pressure or shape. In the aircraft industry there are time limits from when a tube is bent, such as hydraulic lines, to when it needs to be installed and put under pressure. The bends get out of spec if it sits too long. A little stretching isn't going to be noticed in the shooting world, it's just not that precise of an operation with all the other variables involved. TI does gall when in contact with carbon and chromium metals. When you torque a barrel into an action it should be done as little as possible. If you burn through barrels or just like to change things up a lot TI is not the way to go. Steel bolts usually made of 4140 or 4150 steels are not a good match to be in rubbing contact with TI. Any roughness on the lugs, grit, unburnt powder, brass flakes really tear up the lug butts. Headspace happens because of this wear, not because the TI is soft but because of the metallurgical disparity. It has a place in firearms but I would limit it to a hunting rifle and not something I'm putting several hundred to thousands of rounds through. If you shoot casually I think it's a fine material.
cohunt
Well-Known Member
not really, its a hybrid design with ti recoil lug-- hence the suggestion that he put in his 2 cents on why he chose to design it that way--or as others have insinuated (seems like his name might be a sore subject with some people around here though)
as JEC said above-- all bolts are still ss, there is a reason why
-- now if you took a receiver design where the bolt locked into a barrel tenon then you could get away with an aluminum or even polymer receiver as it would take all the stress off the action and put it on the barrel -- that would lighten it a bit but tends to have a "bad reputation" in the bolt action world
Danny1788
Well-Known Member
I think Pierce made an all Ti action with a Ti bolt at one time.
ntsqd
Well-Known Member
Matweb lists Ti 6AL-4V as having a 6380 ksi Shear Modulus, 416R as having a 10500 ksi Shear Modulus, and 4140N & 4150N as having a 11600 ksi Shear Modulus. So it is lower, but I don't think that is what it driving the steel bolt decision. I think it is more likely a galling problem. In my limited exposure to it, Ti can be as good at that as is a 300 series SST.
tony d willIiams
Well-Known Member
Different rates of thermal expansion would, could be an ugly problem. I shoot at most five shots in a row, (usually 3),then cool down while I consider and note data. After load development just a few now and again to stay in condition.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I've used quite a few of them and honestly if I was going Ti anymore it's the only way I would build one because you do actually save serious weight with the Ti bolt, with a steel bolt they are so close to a really lightened all steel actions. Ti does stretch more so on higher pressure loads you'll notice it in the bolt lift earlier than you would on a steel. Ti needs a coating IMO like PVD or something to keep them running smooth which is what I like about the Pierce Ti.
Ti round stock costs about $30-$35 a pound. It can be hard on tools, but realistically its not much worse on tools than 17-4ph. It takes longer to machine. It definitely has weight savings, which should be the only driving factor. If your making a 10+lb gun, theres zero reason to go titanium. As far as differences in cooling... tool steel cools .000006" per inch per degree. Titanium is slightly more stable than that as far as heat goes. Companies that make Ti actions obviously pressure test them.
DLC coating is what most companies I have made parts for like to use when you have different materials sliding together. There are lots of titanium-steel interfacing pieces in the medical industry, and the DLC coating on both makes them glide like butter.
DLC coating is what most companies I have made parts for like to use when you have different materials sliding together. There are lots of titanium-steel interfacing pieces in the medical industry, and the DLC coating on both makes them glide like butter.
I know nothing about the gun world on titanium. I do know that it has a duty life cycle. In race engines you have to keep track of how long the valves or rods have been used. In drag racing, usually you change them around 800 passes or so. Also ant scrathes can lead to failure. That is why no one buys used valves or rods made if titanium.....unless you dont know this.
