You missed "John Wayne " toilet paper...it's rough,it's tough, but it takes no $%^& from Indians!
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"there is nothin new under the sun." New chamberings
- Thread starter nksmfamjp
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As my shooting buddy from NOLA says, "whatever floats your pirogue"
nksmfamjp
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2004
- Messages
- 3,464
Doing it here only because others maybe interested:I'm not versed in the Sherman cartridges, but have seen them mentioned often.......
PM. Me some pictures or really good links please.
Sherman Wildcat Cartridges
Precision rifle cartridges with optimized efficiency for extended-range hunting and long range rifle competition.
shermanwildcatcartridges.com
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That's why they make chocolate and vanilla! Hate that thin toilet paper.
It is called re-inventing the wheel.
Sorry for being a smart arse but couldn't help myself.
Web1350
Well-Known Member
As my grandpa used to say, "If everybody liked the same things they'd all be after grandma".
Another Casual
Well-Known Member
It has some different features, and more options isn't bad. From looking at Midway, 6.5-284 has 7 factory offerings for ammo, 6.5 PRC has 16. I haven't counted, but from what I see on the shelf at local stores the PRC has more factory rifles as well. No rebated rim which is supposed to help with feeding from a BDL setup. Slightly larger case capacity as well.
Depending on what you want to do, either will serve you well. If you have an action with a standard bolt face, a DBM, and you reload, 6.5-284. Magnum bolt face with BDL and you want factory ammo, 6.5 PRC.
If they never made the creedmoor because the .260 existed we wouldn't have all the great 6.5mm bullets we have today. More options helps all of us by pushing development.
Well the first thing to discount here is giving it to a Gun Writer. Gun Writers are PAID to say nice things about the things they are writing about, not necessarily what is reality. Case in point is the kind words all of them had to say about the 6.5 Creedmoor. All of those words ended up with all manufacturers immediately building rifles for the 6.5 and many rifles of all quality levels were sold. Good Commerce, yes. Sold a lot of rifles and ammo. Good reporting, no. Now with a few years of real world under the communal belt, the inadequacies of the 6.5 are slowly being revealed.
I use the Federal Ammunition tables for the ballistics for all of my comparisons. (Federalammunition.com) as well as the Federal Premium line for comparison between the cartridges. This information and much more is available on this web site in an easy to use manner.
For this comparison I am using Federal Premium Berger Hybrid Hunter ammo (p65crdbch1) 135 gr against Berger Hybrid ammo 140 gr (p270bch1) which is about as close a match as can be had with factory ammo. It's too bad that nobody makes Match ammo in .270 however some of the new hunting bullets by Federal, Hornady and Sierra are well up to being excellent target bullets and it would be interesting to see how the .270 compares to other long range firearms at 1000+ yards. (NOTE: my Tikka T3X, out of the box shoots groups of 0.48 inches with both Federal and Sig Sauer ammo. So far my handloads cannot get any appreciable improvement on the factory ammo)
The 6.5 leaves the barrel at 2775 fps. The 270 leaves the barrel at 2950. Advantage .270 by 175 fps. At 500 yards which is far as Federal takes their data out to, the 6.5 is down to 2049 fps, the 270 is down to 2123 fps. Advantage .270 by 74 fps.
Now let's compare energy. I'm going to cut this short and simply list energy at 500 yards. The 6.5 has 1258 foot pounds. The 270 has 1301 foot pounds. Advantage again .270. Long range (500 yards) velocity) As expected since the 6.5 leaves the barrel slower it is going to be slower at 500 yards than the .270.
Now let's move on to bullet drop at 500 yards., The 6.5 has a bullet drop of 42.7 inches. The 270 has a bullet drop of 38.5 inches. Advantage .270 by 4.2 inches.
Last but not least is wind drift with a 10 mph wind. The 6.5 drift is 15.7 inches, the .270 is 16.2 inches. Advantage 6.5 by a mere 1/2 inch.
Now can anyone tell me why the 6.5 is touted to be the superior hunting round, especially at long range? Has anyone bothered to compare the 6.5 to the .270 at 1000 or even 1400 yards? Probably not. That comparison might be enlightening, and being retired and on a fixed income I'm not going to spend any money on buying a rifle in 6.5 to prove it. I am sure there are many of you out there that own both rifles and have access to 1000 yard ranges that can check it out and report back here.
Getting back to the subject of this post, one simply cannot accurately predict what any rifle will do with any ammunition, You cannot compare one to another until you shoot for grouping out of each rifle with the same ammo and see who comes up the winner. When you find out which ammo the rifle likes try to buy as much as you can afford these days from the same lot as the ammo you just proved your rifle likes. Yes ammo can vary greatly from lot to lot and keeping as much as you can from the same lot will ensure a lot of great shooting from that rifle.
I use the Federal Ammunition tables for the ballistics for all of my comparisons. (Federalammunition.com) as well as the Federal Premium line for comparison between the cartridges. This information and much more is available on this web site in an easy to use manner.
For this comparison I am using Federal Premium Berger Hybrid Hunter ammo (p65crdbch1) 135 gr against Berger Hybrid ammo 140 gr (p270bch1) which is about as close a match as can be had with factory ammo. It's too bad that nobody makes Match ammo in .270 however some of the new hunting bullets by Federal, Hornady and Sierra are well up to being excellent target bullets and it would be interesting to see how the .270 compares to other long range firearms at 1000+ yards. (NOTE: my Tikka T3X, out of the box shoots groups of 0.48 inches with both Federal and Sig Sauer ammo. So far my handloads cannot get any appreciable improvement on the factory ammo)
The 6.5 leaves the barrel at 2775 fps. The 270 leaves the barrel at 2950. Advantage .270 by 175 fps. At 500 yards which is far as Federal takes their data out to, the 6.5 is down to 2049 fps, the 270 is down to 2123 fps. Advantage .270 by 74 fps.
Now let's compare energy. I'm going to cut this short and simply list energy at 500 yards. The 6.5 has 1258 foot pounds. The 270 has 1301 foot pounds. Advantage again .270. Long range (500 yards) velocity) As expected since the 6.5 leaves the barrel slower it is going to be slower at 500 yards than the .270.
Now let's move on to bullet drop at 500 yards., The 6.5 has a bullet drop of 42.7 inches. The 270 has a bullet drop of 38.5 inches. Advantage .270 by 4.2 inches.
Last but not least is wind drift with a 10 mph wind. The 6.5 drift is 15.7 inches, the .270 is 16.2 inches. Advantage 6.5 by a mere 1/2 inch.
Now can anyone tell me why the 6.5 is touted to be the superior hunting round, especially at long range? Has anyone bothered to compare the 6.5 to the .270 at 1000 or even 1400 yards? Probably not. That comparison might be enlightening, and being retired and on a fixed income I'm not going to spend any money on buying a rifle in 6.5 to prove it. I am sure there are many of you out there that own both rifles and have access to 1000 yard ranges that can check it out and report back here.
Getting back to the subject of this post, one simply cannot accurately predict what any rifle will do with any ammunition, You cannot compare one to another until you shoot for grouping out of each rifle with the same ammo and see who comes up the winner. When you find out which ammo the rifle likes try to buy as much as you can afford these days from the same lot as the ammo you just proved your rifle likes. Yes ammo can vary greatly from lot to lot and keeping as much as you can from the same lot will ensure a lot of great shooting from that rifle.
rustyshackleford
Well-Known Member
I would argue that PRS drove the development of the advances in 6.5 bullets, independent of the creed. The 6.5-284 was probably more popular prior to the 6.5 PRC. All the PRC did was introduce another contender to an already crowded field. The fact that hornady is supporting their new cartridge is good and all but I don't think it means 6.5-284 was lacking, only that it wasn't going to make hornady enough money.
The .300 PRC has one advantage over the .300 Win Mag, I can buy non custom rifles with the correct twist and I don't have to handload to shoot the 212gr ELD-X/225gr ELD-M. That being said I do both which is why I have multiple .300 Win Mags and zero .300 PRC. If the 30 Nosler had fixed the COAL and twist rate shortcomings of the .300 win mag then the PRC wouldn't even exist but all they did was remove the belt while leaving the 3.34 COAL and 10 twist barrels leaving the door wide open for Hornady.
As for the 6.5-284, as I understand it there are two different standards, the Winchester and the Norma, each with a different throat configuration that lends themselves to different types of bullets. Advanced shooters and reloader such as most of the people on this site can figure out the difference but we are the minority by far. Rather than deal with that headache it was simpler and more cost effective for Hornady to introduce a different cartridge correctly speced out to meet their requirements.
Heck Winchester literally took their own not even 20 year old cartridge, modernized it with a fast twist and slightly better geometry to better handle long range bullets and rereleased it as the 6.8 Western.
rustyshackleford
Well-Known Member
I totally agree about the 30 nosler should've been either 3.6 OAL or a shorter case. I'd put the 6.8 western in the same category as the 300 PRC and 6.5 PRC. They just don't appeal to me and I feel like they nurture the fallacy of leaving the store and being a 1000 yard hunter.
Turn key accessibility is good, but capability without understanding is bad.
Well first off the 270 burns 15gr more powder on average so by default it is going to have a speed advantage. That being said the Berger Ammunition version of their 135gr Classic Hunter in the 6.5 Creedmoor is going 2850 fps which is mild compared to the Unknown Munitions which pushes the 135gr A-Tip at 2920fps both of which a significantly faster than the 2775 offered by federal. This difference means that per your numbers with the Berger ammo the 6.5 Creedmoor matches the .270 at 500 yards while burning 15gr less powder and fitting in a short action.
Now compare that to the average .270 that most people are shooting (green boxes, soft points, etc) and the gap will start to grow. Then compare the .270 to the 6.5 PRC, a case with similar powder capacity and the .270 gets beat without getting into the custom/hand loading realm.
The 6.5 Creedmoor excels at its intended purpose, a long range target cartridge with a moderate powder charge and low recoil that also works well for deer sized game. However the speed is slower than I would like for a flat shooting hunting cartridge which is why my target rifle is chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor and my hunting rifle is chambered in 6.5 PRC.
rustyshackleford
Well-Known Member
They also load a 150 gr Berger at an advertised 3015 ft/sec in 270. Not great to pick one MFG to say company XYZ is slow. Apples to apples
XSIVSPD
Well-Known Member
I feel like I'm in a slightly different demographic that hasn't been mentioned yet...
I reload, maybe not the advanced level, but probably not far off. Wildcats/fire forming doesn't scare me (I reload for 6 dasher) but but if I can get really close to want I want with something that's available off the shelf at the LGS I'll go that way every time. I'll handload and find a good load, but if I ever need to get something in a hurry (forgot/lost ammo for a hunt) or find a really good deal, or run out of some component or another (covid-19 anyone?) I'll buy and shoot what I can get. Having factory availability of loaded ammo has nothing but positives and a 300prc ticks all those boxes, plus the long range ones.
The Ai and other improved versions of rounds fit this too. The 30SM will probably be the next 30 cal I do. So that I get the best of both worlds.
That said, I think my next rifle might be a 28SM
I reload, maybe not the advanced level, but probably not far off. Wildcats/fire forming doesn't scare me (I reload for 6 dasher) but but if I can get really close to want I want with something that's available off the shelf at the LGS I'll go that way every time. I'll handload and find a good load, but if I ever need to get something in a hurry (forgot/lost ammo for a hunt) or find a really good deal, or run out of some component or another (covid-19 anyone?) I'll buy and shoot what I can get. Having factory availability of loaded ammo has nothing but positives and a 300prc ticks all those boxes, plus the long range ones.
The Ai and other improved versions of rounds fit this too. The 30SM will probably be the next 30 cal I do. So that I get the best of both worlds.
That said, I think my next rifle might be a 28SM
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