The ULTIMATE MUZZLE-LOADER!

[overbore]

Sharpsman, let me give you some "facts" about the Savage, muzzleloader. I think I am more than qualified to give you the "facts" as I am the one who invented, patented, and worked with Savage to market it.

First of all, the breech plug is as long and short as it needs to be. Like edge said, and he has much more experince with the Savage 10ML-II than you ever will, the breech plug is long enough to get the powder charge area past the threads of the barrel nut, for maximum strength. The original 10ML, used a percussion module, that fit into a chamber in the breech plug. The 10ML-II kept the original specs of the 10ML breech plug, but did away with the module. The vent liner was designed to limit the amount of pressure and prevent excess pressure from blowing back into the module and/or primer.

As far as inconsistant ignition, goes in 17 years of shooting this exact same style breech plug, I can count the ignition failures on 1 hand, and still have enough to spare to pick my nose. The 1.5" breech plug works as designed and if one is at least 10% smarter than a lug nut, one will have 100% reliable ignition. Use the correct primers, the correct powders, and the correct sabot/bullet combination, you can hunt from the Artic to the Equator, with zero igniton failure. Drop the firing pin on an unloaded Savage 10ML-II, with just a Federal or a Winchester 209 primer inserted and you will see the flame out the end of the 24" barrel. You cannot tell me that the breech plug is to long and the flame is not getting to the powder charge. The 55,000+ rounds of smokeless powder muzzleloading, tells me you are blowing smoke on this subject.

The assinine qoute that BP is thge most accurate powder ever invented, may have been true prior to 1891. Like Edge said, if that were true every benchrest shooter in the world would be shooting it. As far as battleships use it, they as well as field artillery, use a BP booster charge on the base (the Red Pad) of the main powder increment. It is just to aid in the ignition of the main smokeless powder charge.


To WSmitty01, I hate to break it to you, but you are dead wrong. In fact the total opposite is true, in that every year more and more states are allowing the use of smokeless powder in muzzleloaders.

That all I have for now. Let me know if I can clarify anything else. Out here.

Bill Ball

Bill,

My son has, after 15 years of trying, drawn an elk tag for Colorado this Fall for muzzloaders; yes, he is a resident. He is going to use your rifle from Cabellas but must use a ball for his bullet; no sabot. What starting loads can you suggest for ball and sabot?

Many thanks, Overbore

 

[ourway77]

Number #1 I am not as knowlegable as some who have replied. I do shoot a Savage Henry Ball with great succes it shoots under 1" when I do my part and I have made shots to 200 yards, both in the woods and in the fields where I hunt. I am having a Savage I just got converted to a 45 caliber Pac-Nor Barrel with a 1-22 twist, I think I will stick to sabots as I wouldn't even know where to start shoot sabotless bullets. Most of the knowlegable people who have responded to this post I have read very informative posts by them in the past and have learned a great deal from them. Good Luck with your sale I couldn't afford one being on SS But I really dont think it would be my cup of tea as I am spoiled with not having to clean the ML'er til I put it away. I do clean between some shots to see exactly where my POI is as I will be hunting with a clean gun. I read why would someone spend all that money for a ML'er. Like they said when I was in the seabees if you got em' smokum" Lou

 

[johnp034]

WRG, from what I read, (Randy Wakeman) exposed Toby Bridges as being fired from Knight rifles, and from Savage. In retaliation, he supposedly threw Savage under the bus, with stories about the Savage blowing up. From what Randy Wakeman says in his article, it is almost impossible to blow up a Savage ML. Quite an interesting article. Google Randy Wakeman on Toby Bridges, it is a lengthy article that sheds a lot of light. If I can find it, I'll try to post it here.

Found this.

Try this link
http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm




jm2c

 

[edge]

WRG, from what I read, (Randy Wakeman) exposed Toby Bridges as being fired from Knight rifles, and from Savage.

SNIP.

IMO, Randy is somewhat suspect as he took Toby's job and is a Savage spokesman.
Also, IMO the Savage ML is a very safe firearm but subject to human interface. There have been OTHER blow ups that look VERY similar to Toby's.

I doubt that there are any mass produced rifles that have not had a catastrophic accident almost always as a result of human error.
ML's are very prone to multiple loadings and this is almost always the cause, but that can't be proved. Most often a double load results in a bulged barrel because of the stoutness of the Savage. Rarely the barrel does burst, but this is much less common with smokeless than it is with BP!

edge.

 

[RMulhern]

Sharpsman, let me give you some "facts" about the Savage, muzzleloader. I think I am more than qualified to give you the "facts" as I am the one who invented, patented, and worked with Savage to market it.

First of all, the breech plug is as long and short as it needs to be. Like edge said, and he has much more experince with the Savage 10ML-II than you ever will, the breech plug is long enough to get the powder charge area past the threads of the barrel nut, for maximum strength. The original 10ML, used a percussion module, that fit into a chamber in the breech plug. The 10ML-II kept the original specs of the 10ML breech plug, but did away with the module. The vent liner was designed to limit the amount of pressure and prevent excess pressure from blowing back into the module and/or primer.

As far as inconsistant ignition, goes in 17 years of shooting this exact same style breech plug, I can count the ignition failures on 1 hand, and still have enough to spare to pick my nose. The 1.5" breech plug works as designed and if one is at least 10% smarter than a lug nut, one will have 100% reliable ignition. Use the correct primers, the correct powders, and the correct sabot/bullet combination, you can hunt from the Artic to the Equator, with zero igniton failure. Drop the firing pin on an unloaded Savage 10ML-II, with just a Federal or a Winchester 209 primer inserted and you will see the flame out the end of the 24" barrel. You cannot tell me that the breech plug is to long and the flame is not getting to the powder charge. The 55,000+ rounds of smokeless powder muzzleloading, tells me you are blowing smoke on this subject.

The assinine qoute that BP is thge most accurate powder ever invented, may have been true prior to 1891. Like Edge said, if that were true every benchrest shooter in the world would be shooting it. As far as battleships use it, they as well as field artillery, use a BP booster charge on the base (the Red Pad) of the main powder increment. It is just to aid in the ignition of the main smokeless powder charge.


To WSmitty01, I hate to break it to you, but you are dead wrong. In fact the total opposite is true, in that every year more and more states are allowing the use of smokeless powder in muzzleloaders.

That all I have for now. Let me know if I can clarify anything else. Out here.

Bill Ball

Bill

"The assinine qoute that BP is thge most accurate powder ever invented, may have been true prior to 1891. Like Edge said, if that were true every benchrest shooter in the world would be shooting it"

Not an 'assinine statement' at all! What's the best SD you can get with your smokeless powder?? Probably if you hit a 10...that would be considered fantastic with most running anywhere from 15 to a 20! Whereas with BLACKPOWDER it's not uncommon whatsoever to obtain SDs of 2...yes..a TWO using blackpowder! If the folks that are shooting BR had a clue as to how to control fouling using BP....they'ed probably be shooting tighter groups than they are today but with the sentiment today of "I want everything right now".....the patience is just not there!! And that....is THEIR OWN LOSS!!

 

[edge]

Bill

"The assinine qoute that BP is thge most accurate powder ever invented, may have been true prior to 1891. Like Edge said, if that were true every benchrest shooter in the world would be shooting it"

Not an 'assinine statement' at all! What's the best SD you can get with your smokeless powder?? Probably if you hit a 10...that would be considered fantastic with most running anywhere from 15 to a 20! Whereas with BLACKPOWDER it's not uncommon whatsoever to obtain SDs of 2...yes..a TWO using blackpowder! If the folks that are shooting BR had a clue as to how to control fouling using BP....they'ed probably be shooting tighter groups than they are today but with the sentiment today of "I want everything right now".....the patience is just not there!! And that....is THEIR OWN LOSS!!

It would appear that you know something that the bench rest crowd is missing!

My question for you is why don't you go into benchrest and dominate the sport?
Since it would seem that the 1,000 yard shooters can only get their groups down to the 2-3 inch range with their pathetic smokeless powder I suppose you will be in the 1-2 inch range or smaller!
I suspect that we will be seeing you on all of the shows as the spokesman for the big name rifles and scopes soon. I wish you good luck on your soon to be newfound fame.

edge.

 

[RMulhern]

It would appear that you know something that the bench rest crowd is missing!

My question for you is why don't you go into benchrest and dominate the sport?
Since it would seem that the 1,000 yard shooters can only get their groups down to the 2-3 inch range with their pathetic smokeless powder I suppose you will be in the 1-2 inch range or smaller!
I suspect that we will be seeing you on all of the shows as the spokesman for the big name rifles and scopes soon. I wish you good luck on your soon to be newfound fame.

edge.

Dear 'edge'

"why don't you go into benchrest and dominate the sport?"

Frankly....I'd rather have to sleep with Rosie O'Donnell than shoot BR!!

And you still haven't answered MY QUESTION about why.....SP won't deliver the low SDs as compared to blackpowder!! And IMO....you don't know nearly as much as you'd like others here to think you know!!

 

[edge]

SNIP.

And you still haven't answered MY QUESTION about why.....SP won't deliver the low SDs as compared to blackpowder!! And IMO....you don't know nearly as much as you'd like others here to think you know!!

Very strange reply indeed!

I read your prior post and you made a declarative statement concerning BP vs SP, I saw no question at all and certainly no specific question aimed at me for an explanation....if I missed it please point it out!

As far as what I think people know about me, I would assume that it is very little.

If you would like me to explain my BP knowledge, it is virtually non existent! I will say now and for the record that I have never fired BP, ONLY BP Subs...including the first BP sub....smokeless powder!

I have built several smokeless muzzleloaders in 3 different calibers.
I rarely ever use commercially bought sabots and prefer to either shoot sabotless with modern jacketed bullets or to shoot rifle bullets in sabots that I make myself.

These are my 45 caliber sabots with 150 grain .308 Nosler Accubond bullets:

and here is a cutaway view with a 250 grain .338 Accubond :

These sabots are machine rifled to fit my barrel.

Now as far as Rosie is concerned, your personalities would appear to well suited

edge.

 

[RMulhern]

Very strange reply indeed!

I read your prior post and you made a declarative statement concerning BP vs SP, I saw no question at all and certainly no specific question aimed at me for an explanation....if I missed it please point it out!

As far as what I think people know about me, I would assume that it is very little.

If you would like me to explain my BP knowledge, it is virtually non existent! I will say now and for the record that I have never fired BP, ONLY BP Subs...including the first BP sub....smokeless powder!

I have built several smokeless muzzleloaders in 3 different calibers.
I rarely ever use commercially bought sabots and prefer to either shoot sabotless with modern jacketed bullets or to shoot rifle bullets in sabots that I make myself.

These are my 45 caliber sabots with 150 grain .308 Nosler Accubond bullets:

and here is a cutaway view with a 250 grain .338 Accubond :

These sabots are machine rifled to fit my barrel.

Now as far as Rosie is concerned, your personalities would appear to well suited

edge.

I've stated all I intend to say on this subject!

 

[mnoland30]

Do you have an Ultimate Muzzleloader? Looks amazing on the web site. I spent less than that on most of the cars I've owned.

 

[RMulhern]

I don't drink beer, whiskey or smoke cigs, don't fish or take expensive trips to Canada hunting! I hunt on local land and shoot rifles!! I started investing my $$$$ in rifles and loading equipment in 1948, worked my arse off for 40 years flying ag planes and didn't spend everything I made....much like the 'younger set' does today! As for the cost of the Ultimate Rifle....I learned a long time ago that every time I tried buying cheap....it wound up costing me double...so I learned to pick what I configured as QUALITY and buy once!

That pretty much ought to clear your question up!

 

[mnoland30]

Good habits Sharpsman, except maybe for the not fishing. Although it would save me a lot of money if I didn't. I've lived cheaply most of my life and was able to retire early. I will pay top dollar for quality, but I have to be convinced I'm getting what I pay for, because I can't afford to do it all the time. Too often, you don't get what you pay for. That's why I asked about whether you had an Ultimate. I've surfed a lot of forums over the years and it is amazing how many people have opinions about things that aren't even on the market yet. One reason I belong to this forum; you can feel the experience.

I'm impressed with the sabots, can I buy some? I've toyed with shooting .358 bullets in the Precision Rifle duplex sabots, but didn't get good accuracy with the bullet I used. I purchased a partial box just to see if they'd fit. They fit down the barrel fine, but I wondered if they stabilized correctly with the 1:28 twist. The 195 grain .357 bullets shoot fine.

 

[HELLGAP]

sharpsman I have to say you missed the boat on never fishing. In my honesty I nearly gave up hunting because fishing can be catch and release or catch and eat . I wouldnt reallly give up hunting but I hope you give fishing a try.I know what you tried to say with the expensive gun and 2 each his own I have a knight wolverine and it shoots good so why change. Like you said you like to buy higher end items and knothing wrong with that. I make custom knives and everyone has a limit with everything they purchase. kellyw