Cabelas sell the Gibbs rifle, I believe it is a .451 There is a lot of people on the US muzzle loader team shooting that rifle in competition all over the world. I good friend or mine shoots on the US team, he has a Parker Hale .451 and an original that he shoots out to 1200 yds without a problem. I shot his Parker Hale a few times and was very impressed, so much so, when one came available I grabbed it on the spot. I have had it for few years now and haven't had the time to get the proper sights shoot it, being retired now I will soon.
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The ULTIMATE MUZZLE-LOADER!
- Thread starter RMulhern
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WRG
Well-Known Member
1SHOT1KILL,
I need clearification on the real story behind the smokeless Savage 10 that blew up on Toby Bridges and nearly killed him! Was this operator error or machine malfunction? I don't think he shoots the Savage anymore! I believe I read somewhere he is only shooting his Knight & T/C's.
Edge,
Those States that only allow ALL LEAD BULLETS will someday be rewriting the law to ALL COPPER BULLETS. You can bet the farm on that one! Big EPA push coming in the near future!
I need clearification on the real story behind the smokeless Savage 10 that blew up on Toby Bridges and nearly killed him! Was this operator error or machine malfunction? I don't think he shoots the Savage anymore! I believe I read somewhere he is only shooting his Knight & T/C's.
Edge,
Those States that only allow ALL LEAD BULLETS will someday be rewriting the law to ALL COPPER BULLETS. You can bet the farm on that one! Big EPA push coming in the near future!
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vandiver
Member
I can and have built several long range "smokeless" muzzle-loaders built on a Remington 700 short actions in .45 caliber. I hate to give out too much info., but I'll give you guys some. I'm getting consistent velocities of just over 3000 fps with a 275 grain bare (no sabot) bullet. Over 5000 fpe at the muzzle. They will group 3 shots under .5" all day long in 30 degree to 90+ temps. (one day to the next here). At 300 yards we normally see 3 shot groups under 2.5". My best 3 shot groups have been under .250" at 100 yards, under 2" at 300 yards, and under 5" at 600 yards. I'll go against any muzzle-loader out there with one of these. The pressure levels are below safe levels. I would not pull the trigger if I didn't know that.
Oh yeah, I've been a member here for a while (lurking), and I think this is my first post. I just couldn't stay quiet anymore. Take it easy on me!
Oh yeah, I've been a member here for a while (lurking), and I think this is my first post. I just couldn't stay quiet anymore. Take it easy on me!
Your results seem similar to the Richards Custom and other similar rifles.
Another board offers drop-in barrels from Pac-nor for Savage and Remington actions. Most do go with the 45 to shoot sabotless bullets.
I prefer to shoot sabots since I can shoot bullets with much higher BC's, but sabotless does offer a much cheaper cost per shot, and almost automatic accuracy....assuming the wind does not kill the shot
edge.
PS while I do like the 45 for my sabots I would definitely go back to my Gibbs 505 barrel but with a 10 twist to shoot the 300 grain SMK's and the soon to be Berger 300 grainers! I can barely get the 250 grain Accubonds stable with my 14 twist!
Another board offers drop-in barrels from Pac-nor for Savage and Remington actions. Most do go with the 45 to shoot sabotless bullets.
I prefer to shoot sabots since I can shoot bullets with much higher BC's, but sabotless does offer a much cheaper cost per shot, and almost automatic accuracy....assuming the wind does not kill the shot
edge.
PS while I do like the 45 for my sabots I would definitely go back to my Gibbs 505 barrel but with a 10 twist to shoot the 300 grain SMK's and the soon to be Berger 300 grainers! I can barely get the 250 grain Accubonds stable with my 14 twist!
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cavtrooper94
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 10, 2009
- Messages
- 284
Are you saying that you shoot SMK's and VLD's out of a muzle loader. How does that work? Be gentle I'm more of a center fire guy.
"Scouts Out"
"Scouts Out"
I machine sabots for my barrel. Here is a cutaway of one with a 250 Accubond:
edge.
cavtrooper94
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 10, 2009
- Messages
- 284
Thats awesome. Does anyone sell these things, or is this something you fabricated up yourself? What caliber of bullet goes into the sabot.
I make them on a CNC lathe at work when there is free time. The combo in that picture is a .338 250 Accubond. The bullets are 1.470 long and at the extreme end of stability with a 14 twist barrel. I normally shoot 150 grain .308's but I want something with more umph for some downrange power.
The 150 grains I shoot around 3100 fps but I have only gotten the 250's around 2850, but the accuracy is not there with the 250's....yet
edge.
cavtrooper94
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 10, 2009
- Messages
- 284
Keep me updated. Maybe a custom barrel with a faster twist is in order. What accurat range have you gotten out of these? Do you need a special ramrod to load them? Is .50 cal the best or would a .45 be better?
geargrinder
Well-Known Member
edge,
What material is that sabot made of?
What material is that sabot made of?
vandiver
Member
I've yet to find any metallic material, plastic, or composite that have the required properties to stand up to the pressures involved in firing a projectile with smokeless powder. Excessive fouling, dangerous pressures, terrible accuracy all seem to show up before reaching the velocities I like to see. The .45 caliber jacketed bullets are the best option I've found. I know what the wind is doing at different yardages due to the higher BC of the .45 caliber bullets and can adjust for it at distances out to 600 yards just like I do for .308 or .338 caliber center fire cartridges at even greater distances. I'm able to do this with confidence because I can get consistent velocity, low SD, and consistent pressure which together add up to excellent accuracy. I'm all for trying to build a better mouse trap, but until the next piece falls into place this is the best I have found. I'd be interested to know the material used for these .45/.338 sabots. I'd be willing to try it if I have not already. My biggest concern to start with is always pressure. Any idea what kind of pressure these sabots are running?
The material is Type II PVC.
With this material you do need to clean and lube the barrel after each shooting session since you will produce some chlorides which will cause rust. With that being the case I use an alcohol swab between shots to ensure that every shot is just like my first cold clean bore shot.
For the 150 grain NAB 30 caliber bullet I normally zero at 300 yards so most of my whitetail shots don't require a rangefinder and only one adjustment to 400 yards.
I don't know the pressure for sure but expect it to be around 45kpsi +-, based on expansion and velocity.
If I shoot this weekend with the 250 NAB's I'll bring pressure trace and get a trace for each load.
Which 45 bullets do you normally shoot, and which sizing method do you prefer?
I don't shoot sabotless much, but either shoot 250 SST's or the 300 grain Remington that I modify.
For sizing I prefer what I call "mushroom" sizing
To make them you need to size from the base and not the ogive.
Most of the bullet shank is 0.4485 so it will fit easily and align in the bore, however the last 1/8 inch of the shank is 0.452 ensuring a positive engagement with the rifling.
These are the Remington 300 grain 0.458 bullets sized for sabotless and modified to slightly improve B.C.
edge.
With this material you do need to clean and lube the barrel after each shooting session since you will produce some chlorides which will cause rust. With that being the case I use an alcohol swab between shots to ensure that every shot is just like my first cold clean bore shot.
For the 150 grain NAB 30 caliber bullet I normally zero at 300 yards so most of my whitetail shots don't require a rangefinder and only one adjustment to 400 yards.
I don't know the pressure for sure but expect it to be around 45kpsi +-, based on expansion and velocity.
If I shoot this weekend with the 250 NAB's I'll bring pressure trace and get a trace for each load.
Which 45 bullets do you normally shoot, and which sizing method do you prefer?
I don't shoot sabotless much, but either shoot 250 SST's or the 300 grain Remington that I modify.
For sizing I prefer what I call "mushroom" sizing
To make them you need to size from the base and not the ogive.
Most of the bullet shank is 0.4485 so it will fit easily and align in the bore, however the last 1/8 inch of the shank is 0.452 ensuring a positive engagement with the rifling.
These are the Remington 300 grain 0.458 bullets sized for sabotless and modified to slightly improve B.C.
edge.
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I got to the range today and shot a few loads with the pressure trace but no chronograph.
The 250 NAB with a 35 grain sabot under a duplex load of 95 grains of powder which is around 2850 +- fps gave me this trace:
It does have a large muzzle flash so I'll play with the ratio a bit.
Quickload would estimate 45kpsi with a straight 3031 load and a velocity of 2894.
The 150 NAB with a 25 grain sabot reached 37kpsi @0.30 ms and that usually runs around 3100 fps.
I also shot a sabotless 300 Remington modified from the previous post with a mild load of 55 grains of N120.
Quickload estimated 44,674psi and a velocity of 2350 fps.
PT gave me a trace of 44,324 @ 0.31 ms.
I did switch back and forth between 209 primers and LRM primers and found that with a heavier bullet the LRM yielded more pressure with the same load but less pressure with the lighter bullets ( although it may just have been with lower pressure loads.....)
edge.
The 250 NAB with a 35 grain sabot under a duplex load of 95 grains of powder which is around 2850 +- fps gave me this trace:
It does have a large muzzle flash so I'll play with the ratio a bit.
Quickload would estimate 45kpsi with a straight 3031 load and a velocity of 2894.
The 150 NAB with a 25 grain sabot reached 37kpsi @0.30 ms and that usually runs around 3100 fps.
I also shot a sabotless 300 Remington modified from the previous post with a mild load of 55 grains of N120.
Quickload estimated 44,674psi and a velocity of 2350 fps.
PT gave me a trace of 44,324 @ 0.31 ms.
I did switch back and forth between 209 primers and LRM primers and found that with a heavier bullet the LRM yielded more pressure with the same load but less pressure with the lighter bullets ( although it may just have been with lower pressure loads.....)
edge.
