I personally don't have the money to build these kind of rigs. I shoot a factory stock howa 22-250 and have had great results. I did spend the extra money on a shepard scope. Best money spent. I did read a while back about a wildcat cartirage in a 22-240 weatherby mag. Claimed it was the fastest cartirage bar none, pushing 5200fps plus muzzle velocity. I will have to dig the article out of my my stoage shed [full of boxes of old mags.]and post some specifics.
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The Ultimate calibre for LR Varmints?
- Thread starter duovid
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CatShooter
Well-Known Member
Not the fastest. The .22-284 has reached ~6400 fps.
Barrel life left something to be desired.
And there are probably bigger ones around. They are the toys of people with more money than brains.
And the Navy's "Crane Naval Warfare Center", has reached 25,000 fps with helium driven guns.
(They have the brains, and lots of OUR money
).
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I don't think there is such a thing as an "ultimate" in anything. Your final selection will be a compromise based upon your priorities and resources.
Having said that I just resist the urge to share my 2 cents.
Long range shooting with a .224 caliber is problematic unless you are an expert at reading wind sign. .224 bullets will always suffer in wind due to their sectional density. Why build a custom weapon that is fundamentally flawed when you could select a 6-6.5mm bullet and greatly minimize your drift.
Overbore cartridges are not nearly as flexible as smaller cartridges when you are trying to work up a load. Your gonna find fewer good powder alternatives and you will spend more time tweaking the load for best accuracy. And overbore cartridges erode barrels quicker. For example, a barrel for a 6/284 may only last 1000 rounds. And it could take you 200 rounds to get your load right. Leaving you with 800 rounds of accurate shooting through your barrel.
Cartridges with low pressure limits also make it more difficult to work up that magic load. A lot of the Ackley Improved cartridges have lower pressure limits than the standard cartridges they derive from. This makes it more difficult to realize the benefits of the increased powder capacity if you are going to stay within the limits.
Long range shooting takes practice so choose a firearm that you can afford to practice with.
I wouldn't get too enamored with a high muzzle velocity. For long range shooting the speed retained down range is where you start seeing the benefits of a flat trajectory and less wind drift. To do this you will need to select a bullet with a high ballistic coefficient. The 6.5mm and 7mm bullets tend to have the highest ballistic coefficents.
So weighed against some of the things I've pointed out here. I would select a cartridge of at least 6mm with excellent bullet selection. A cartridge that was not overbore. Preferrably a cartridge that was on the efficient side. A cartridge that had demonstrable accuracy. A cartridge that had a large amount of info available for accurate loads. A cartridge that wouldn't burn out barrels too quickly. I would want at least 2-3 thousand accurate rounds out of a barrel. I would want a cartridge with higher pressure limits. Not that I would actually push it that hard but I want more flexibility in load selection.
Here are the cartridges that meet the criteria.
6mm BRX
- IMR 4895 34.8gr 3288fps 56875psi, 87gr Hornady V-MAX .4 bc
6mm Dasher
- IMR 4895 34.1gr 3267fps 56875psi, 87gr Hornady V-MAX .4 bc
6mm XC Tubbs
- H4350 44.2gr 3395fps 56875psi, 87gr Hornady V-MAX .4 bc
6-6.5x47 Lapua
- H4350 41.4gr 3272fps 53820psi, 87gr Hornady V-MAX .4 bc
6.5x47 Lapua
- IMR 4895 37.9gr 3078fps 55205psi, 108gr Lapua Scenar .478 bc
This info came from quickload.
All of these are used in bench rest competition. The 1000yd Camp Perry competition has been won with the 6xc Tubbs. All the cartridges listed are rated between 63000 and 65000 psi so the sample loads I've shown are not overly agressive. The 6.5x47 Lapua is a commercial cartridge. Factory ammo is available as is factory brass.
Having said that I just resist the urge to share my 2 cents.
Long range shooting with a .224 caliber is problematic unless you are an expert at reading wind sign. .224 bullets will always suffer in wind due to their sectional density. Why build a custom weapon that is fundamentally flawed when you could select a 6-6.5mm bullet and greatly minimize your drift.
Overbore cartridges are not nearly as flexible as smaller cartridges when you are trying to work up a load. Your gonna find fewer good powder alternatives and you will spend more time tweaking the load for best accuracy. And overbore cartridges erode barrels quicker. For example, a barrel for a 6/284 may only last 1000 rounds. And it could take you 200 rounds to get your load right. Leaving you with 800 rounds of accurate shooting through your barrel.
Cartridges with low pressure limits also make it more difficult to work up that magic load. A lot of the Ackley Improved cartridges have lower pressure limits than the standard cartridges they derive from. This makes it more difficult to realize the benefits of the increased powder capacity if you are going to stay within the limits.
Long range shooting takes practice so choose a firearm that you can afford to practice with.
I wouldn't get too enamored with a high muzzle velocity. For long range shooting the speed retained down range is where you start seeing the benefits of a flat trajectory and less wind drift. To do this you will need to select a bullet with a high ballistic coefficient. The 6.5mm and 7mm bullets tend to have the highest ballistic coefficents.
So weighed against some of the things I've pointed out here. I would select a cartridge of at least 6mm with excellent bullet selection. A cartridge that was not overbore. Preferrably a cartridge that was on the efficient side. A cartridge that had demonstrable accuracy. A cartridge that had a large amount of info available for accurate loads. A cartridge that wouldn't burn out barrels too quickly. I would want at least 2-3 thousand accurate rounds out of a barrel. I would want a cartridge with higher pressure limits. Not that I would actually push it that hard but I want more flexibility in load selection.
Here are the cartridges that meet the criteria.
6mm BRX
- IMR 4895 34.8gr 3288fps 56875psi, 87gr Hornady V-MAX .4 bc
6mm Dasher
- IMR 4895 34.1gr 3267fps 56875psi, 87gr Hornady V-MAX .4 bc
6mm XC Tubbs
- H4350 44.2gr 3395fps 56875psi, 87gr Hornady V-MAX .4 bc
6-6.5x47 Lapua
- H4350 41.4gr 3272fps 53820psi, 87gr Hornady V-MAX .4 bc
6.5x47 Lapua
- IMR 4895 37.9gr 3078fps 55205psi, 108gr Lapua Scenar .478 bc
This info came from quickload.
All of these are used in bench rest competition. The 1000yd Camp Perry competition has been won with the 6xc Tubbs. All the cartridges listed are rated between 63000 and 65000 psi so the sample loads I've shown are not overly agressive. The 6.5x47 Lapua is a commercial cartridge. Factory ammo is available as is factory brass.
22 Caliber
Ha BD8, have you checked out the BC of the 75 grain Hornady A-Max bullet in 22 caliber. I agreed with your 6mm ideas until I saw the Hornady BC. I realize the 6.5 are better, but then recoil becomes an issue. I really like to see impacts, and IMO The 22-250 with the 75's are the upper end of seeing impact. Tom.
Ha BD8, have you checked out the BC of the 75 grain Hornady A-Max bullet in 22 caliber. I agreed with your 6mm ideas until I saw the Hornady BC. I realize the 6.5 are better, but then recoil becomes an issue. I really like to see impacts, and IMO The 22-250 with the 75's are the upper end of seeing impact. Tom.
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
Hey, I'll throw my penny's worth in the ring.
How about a .277 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet @ 3500 fps. BC=.496 or so and should out do any .224 cal and most of the 6/6.5s
The only downers are the 100+ grains of powder and barrel life but bbl life is at least as good as a hot shootin 22-250 or 6-284 I'd think.
How about a .277 150gr Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet @ 3500 fps. BC=.496 or so and should out do any .224 cal and most of the 6/6.5s
The only downers are the 100+ grains of powder and barrel life but bbl life is at least as good as a hot shootin 22-250 or 6-284 I'd think.
johngfoster
Active Member
This makes sense to me. I think the first question should be what you want to do with the animal once you've shot it. If you're shooting coyotes and trying to sell the fur, then there aren't any great options if you're trying to get out to 750yd. A 22-250 with a 75gr A-MAX I think is about as good as you will get for this.
If you don't want to save the fur, then why not keep it simple: Tactical .308 Win with 168 or 175 gr SMK built on a Rem 700 action? Ammo is cheap, and accurate, and brass is plentiful. Barrel life is excellent. You could also load up 110 gr V-MAX, but I don't have any experience with these at those distances. Performance should be good on the animal, but accuracy and range I don't know.
i had initially thought about going with the 22-6mm myself. loaded with an 80gr. a-max and velocities of up 3750fps. (even though a velocity of around 3400-3500fps sounds more realistic to me). A 22-250 ai with a fast twist would come very close to this. 80gr. .224 bullets are very long though and with a 6mm case i would of had feeding problems in my rem. sa. My howa with a 1-12 twist shoots the 45grainers like no ones buisness at 3800fps. So my 22-250 is just fine for me. With that said i have decided that for something a little bigger than a litter bigger bullet is needed.
An 87gr. .243 diameter bullet is almost as good.
.224 dia. bc/sd
75gr. a-max .435/.214
80gr. a-max .453/.228
.243 dia. bc/sd
87gr. v-max .400/.210
keep in mind bc is a measure of how well a bullet flies through the air and sd is the mesure of a bullets abillity to penetrate. That may not mean a whole lot until you start to consider terminal ballistics. I believe that a larger dia. bullet will create a bigger wound channel. (not gonna say shock or shock wave here cause i dont believe an animals insides behave like a gal of water when shot) Thus be a better choice for real long shots when the bullet may not fragment like it should especially when shooting an 75-80 gr. a-max out of a .224 cal.(these are the heviest bullets with the highest bc for .224) Also these bullets were intended for targets and deer sized game.(.224 TTh(22-6mm)) and from what i've read on this site an 87gr. v-max outta a .243 or 6mm works good on both yotes and deer.
An 87gr. .243 diameter bullet is almost as good.
.224 dia. bc/sd
75gr. a-max .435/.214
80gr. a-max .453/.228
.243 dia. bc/sd
87gr. v-max .400/.210
keep in mind bc is a measure of how well a bullet flies through the air and sd is the mesure of a bullets abillity to penetrate. That may not mean a whole lot until you start to consider terminal ballistics. I believe that a larger dia. bullet will create a bigger wound channel. (not gonna say shock or shock wave here cause i dont believe an animals insides behave like a gal of water when shot) Thus be a better choice for real long shots when the bullet may not fragment like it should especially when shooting an 75-80 gr. a-max out of a .224 cal.(these are the heviest bullets with the highest bc for .224) Also these bullets were intended for targets and deer sized game.(.224 TTh(22-6mm)) and from what i've read on this site an 87gr. v-max outta a .243 or 6mm works good on both yotes and deer.
Ksmirk
Well-Known Member
Simple
I hope your not looking to save the fur, anything with enough horse power to get you out to over 500 is going to be pure hell on a pelt. There have been a dozen good answers stated as to calibers to get you out that far but what about just doing something simple? get you a Savage rifle in 243 with a 1-8 twist barrel and shoot the 105 A-Maxes, it may not push the bullet to 3500fps but I have figured out the VLD type bullets travel a long way without having to be blasted out the barrel at crazy velocities found out shooting praire dogs with a 223 and the 75gr A-Max bulletshold over like i was with the 55's and the goofy bullets would hit way past the little critters. The 6x47 Lapua sounds like a very promissing round and the 6BR has proven itself, I've heard many good things about the 22-243 and the 75gr A-Max but barrel life has not been a good seller. I have just started the long range with the 243 and 105 A-Max but so far it's looking promissing but the jury is still out. If you do go with a Savage and you don't like the caliber just chuck it up in the vice take your handy barrel nut wrench and in 30 minutes you can have another rifle. Later,
Kirk
I hope your not looking to save the fur, anything with enough horse power to get you out to over 500 is going to be pure hell on a pelt. There have been a dozen good answers stated as to calibers to get you out that far but what about just doing something simple? get you a Savage rifle in 243 with a 1-8 twist barrel and shoot the 105 A-Maxes, it may not push the bullet to 3500fps but I have figured out the VLD type bullets travel a long way without having to be blasted out the barrel at crazy velocities found out shooting praire dogs with a 223 and the 75gr A-Max bulletshold over like i was with the 55's and the goofy bullets would hit way past the little critters. The 6x47 Lapua sounds like a very promissing round and the 6BR has proven itself, I've heard many good things about the 22-243 and the 75gr A-Max but barrel life has not been a good seller. I have just started the long range with the 243 and 105 A-Max but so far it's looking promissing but the jury is still out. If you do go with a Savage and you don't like the caliber just chuck it up in the vice take your handy barrel nut wrench and in 30 minutes you can have another rifle. Later,
Kirk
C
Chawlston
Guest
You sound like me many years ago when I was building my first custom (non-competition rig).... I could not decide on the exact caliber much less the chambering for that caliber. I wound up with 22-6mm, 6x284, 25x284, 6.5x284. If I had to do it all over again, I would do the three barrel switch gun and leave out the 6.5x284. I have never even shot the 6.5 or .25 barrel. I just cannot fathom having any more fun than playing with the 22-6MM and the 6x284. The 284 case is really not that bad on barrels if you don't let them get hot and continue shooting like a machine gun (I have over 2000 rounds on mine at 3700 fps with 90 BT and it still shoots bug holes). If you are going to shoot it fast with a lot of follow up type shots, then a BR case and/or variation thereof will give you better barrel life. But, for shots on animals with cold barrels the best I could recomment is the 6x284 and 22-6mm.
For gentlemen shooting (minimal recoil to see the impacts) in a non-hunting setting, I would say the BR or the BR improved type chamberings. They are fun to shoot and you will enjoy yourself. FWIW, I am getting ready to have a new 8 twist barrel chambered in 6x284 next week so I can shoot the longer bullets (i.e., 90 sciroccos, 107 Sierras and eqivalent Bergers).
One more point...... A custom action and the customized factory actions are about the same investment. The best would be to purchase a used custom action which will usually get you under a tuned factory action. And,,,,, you will probably be much happier with the custom action.
Good Luck,
Chawlston
Hoghead, I have a 22-250 remington vssf no customization. It shoots one-ragged-hole 10-shot groups at 100yds with factory hornady ammo, 50gr v-max. Recoil is very light, I have no difficulty following through and spotting my own bullet impacts. When the barrel finally gives out I'll re-barrel with something heavier and a faster twist. But I still wouldn't recommend that anyone buy a factory 22-250 and customize it just to be able to shoot heavier bullets. The real strengths of the 22-250, 220 swift and other hot 22 varmint cartridges is in their long PBR. For the shooter that wants to shoot out to 300-400yds without having to be overly concerned about compensating for windage and elevation these cartridges are almost without peer.
RAINIERRIFLE
Member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2007
- Messages
- 5
you asked for opinions you got it. verry good ones too. Post 32 says it all. my coyote rifle is a sako 591 chambered in 6-284 28 in verry light bbl it is just a coyote gun gets carried more than shot. if you go to a prerry dog town with a 6-284 you will go home with a shot out bbl. my pardner knows first hand. when its windy i use 6mm-250 basicly same as 6 xc ,calm days 223 or 223 imp 22-250 i just put togather a 6,5-284 with 30in bbl this may be the one.?
