The Solid Bullet Debate

[MontanaRifleman]

Jon,

My apology if I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that since monometals were less dense they would be loner and therefore not fit the mag. In any case, I dont think there are many if any factory actions that will allow handloaded high BC bullets to be loaded to the lands and fit the factory mag. None do in any of my rifles.

As for the previous marketing of GS bullets, I am ignorant. I have only come to know about them in this last year. So I will leave that where it is.

And you're right, what I "want" to hear is that the GS bullet is the magic bullet. Or any bullet for that matter. I've chatted with another member in here who is, as I stated earlier, starting tio test the 177's. From his description they sound like they do not have a large hollow point. His descriptuion is that they looked like missles. He has also used the 173's. I think we will have a good idea fairly soon how they perform. If they fall short. Oh well... time to move on to the next magic bullet

 

[MontanaRifleman]

On the 30 Cal Noel,

As mentioned above, yes. While the 338's get all the good press, I'd venture to guess of the members here who use some sort of 30 Cal magnum as their primary LRHR probably outnumber all the rest put together. I believe the single biggest reason many here migrated to 338 from 30 cal was very simply due to the 300 SMK being a much better bullet than the 240 SMK. Not that the 240 is bad, but the 300 is in a different class BC-wise.

When Wildcat Bullets was up and running, plenty here put faster twists on other caliber rifles, 30 cal just hadn't really happened yet. If you build it, they will come.

I went to the "Your Next Rifle Will Be In Which Cartridge" thread and added up the numbers. Not sure how scientific this is but here they are...

7mm - 139 (WSM, RUM, AM)
308 - 177 (WM, WSM, RUM)
338 - 174 (RUM, LM, EDGE)

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f22/your-next-rifle-will-cartridge-38192/

So the 308 and the 338 are pretty close acording to those numbers, but I would have agreed with you off the top of my head. I think for all around hunting, the 308 cartridges are probably the overwhelming majority, but for LR, it seems the big 338's have gained a lot of popularity and the .284 is right up there too.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I have been looking at this bullet with great interest. Even though I am no longer using the 300's I would be very interested in this bullet from my 308's. Think about it. A 177 grain bullet with such a high BC that would help it keep its velocity afloat a bit longer AND expand between 1500-1600 FPS. This would be a dream come true for a die hard 308 fan like me. I am already getting 2850 out of 178 AMAX's with the right barrel AND the right powder. I cant imagine how much farther I could ethically take my 308's with a bullet weighing near 180 grains that will deliver good downrange velocity AND reliable expansion. No deer, sheep or antelope would be safe inside 1/2 mile+

I for one am EXTREEMLY interested in 30 cal mono metal bullets PROVIDED that they offer good accuracy, BC's AND low velocity expansion. If it can be done, I would be a supporter for sure. I would even be willing to cash in my 11 twist barrels for 9's or 10's to make them work properly.

Michael,

If you check out the GS site for the 177, you will see that a 10 twist is border line, and for shooting game closer than 500 yds, a 9 twist is recomended. I dont know how MV and barrel length will affect stability, but I assume the faster and longer the better. So if I was shooting it out of a .308 I think I would go with at least a 9 twist or maybe an 8 or 8 1/2. Let's hope the adverised BC is close, and from what I've heard, the accuracy IS good.

GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Specifications for use

-MR

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Paul,

I received a few e-mails saying essentially the same thing you just did, so hopefully this single response will lay out the issues well enough for discussion.

Producing a ZA30/6.0-H is a relatively easy thing to do from my standpoint.

The plus side of this idea is that a 30 caliber is much less expensive than a 338, 375, or certainly a 50. The Match/Hunt combination is still necessary to make the proposition economically viable however.

The down-side is the following;

- In order to maximize performance in a magazine equipped platform, I would need ~1.11", beyond case length, to accomodate the nose.

- The selected case would have to be readily available from Lapua and/or Norma.

- The barrel would have to have a minimum 8" twist, and be compatible with existing jacketed projectiles (ie. , the jackets need to reliably stay on the core).

- I would need a group of qualified shooters willing to perform beta testing at their own expense, and be placed under an NDA.

If these conditions can be met, I will seriously consider the project.

Best,
Noel

Noel,

If you can provide reasonable assurance of a 190-200 gr bullet with a BC of ~ 1, and good reliable expnsion... I think folks will be stumbling over themselves to do some beta testing for you. I know if had the resources to do a build I would be saying where do I sign the NDA? ...and then procede with a 300 Dakota build.

Why is it necessary to have Lapua or Norma cases?

-MR

 

[noel carlson]

MR,

If I gave you a reasonable assurance of a G1 BC of ~1, you could be certain to be disappointed .

Realistically, the BC range would fall in the mid-to-upper .6's (but do not quote me on this because I do not rely on guesses). Now let me move up to a non-magazine compatible 6.5, or 7.0 caliber projectile, and I can guess a little higher (but still, don't hold me to a hard number ... same reason).

In all seriousness, I will commit to you that a ZA bullet out-classes anything of equivalent weight, in a given caliber.The rub is a higher twist-rate requirement.

Low-velocity expansion I have no problem giving you an assurance on.

My reason reason for a Lapua, or Norma case preference (not necessity), is that I would prefer the end user not have to rework the brass to match grade, and like the idea of re-supply being well developed. It has an indirect bearing on the success of the projectile.

Edge,

How well do your sabots release, and transfer spin?

Best,
Noel

 

[noel carlson]

Thought better of it.

 

[Pdvdh]

MR,

My reason for a Lapua, or Norma case preference (not necessity), is that I would prefer the end user not have to rework the brass to match grade, and like the idea of re-supply being well developed. It has an indirect bearing on the success of the projectile.

Noel

Noel,
I wouldn't leave RWS brass off the list of top-tier brass. RWS and Lapua will be tougher in the case head than all the rest that I'm aware of. Norma will have good dimensional consistency but have a much softer case head, meaning the primer pocket will swell and loosen up under peak pressure loads much quicker than the RWS and Lapua brass.

 

[noel carlson]

Paul,

With that allowance, do you have any suggestions for a suitable case?

- Noel

 

[Jon A]

MR, no worries, it's all good. I do hope you have good luck with those bullets. I'm sure you'll find they're very nice as long as you keep your BC expectations realistic.

I look at seating to the lands and fitting the magazine as different problems. If you know you'll always be using sharp secant ogive bullets you can have the chamber cut to suit. If the round is physically too long to cycle through the action, there's not much you can do about that. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with running single shot--many here do. I personally don't like to have to do that with some of the hunting I do, that's all. Though if there was a fantastic new bullet available and that's the only way I could use it, I just might have to adapt. Maybe keep a mag full of a different load in the rifle in case I need to jump off the horse and whack something at close range but if I have a really long shot pull a round out of my pocket...I could do it, I suppose, but I'd rather not. Some won't mind.

The thing is, I have already had extremely, extremely high BC bullets up to 290 grains loaded to mag length in my 300 RUM. They can work just fine from that standpoint (though my twist wasn't quite good enough to stabilize these). Keeping the nose length reasonable does sort of put a cap on the form factor you'll be able to achieve--not that it's bad, we're talking better than the 300 SMK which I think most of us 30 Cal owners would happily take--but not as good as is possible with a bullet like Noel's.

And that sort of goes back to my point in my first post to this thread. As you approach the ultimate ballistic efficiency, issues of practicality will pop up and one will need to make choices. But for us 30 cal guys we don't have any of those choices at the moment! None of the currently available bullets come close to making full use of the big 30's potential. If Noel makes us a good 30 Cal bullet; if Berger makes us a 240-ish bullet, if Wildcat bullets starts pumping out some big heavies again...then we'll have choices to make and arguments to have!

Noel, as for the ideal 30 cal to test your bullets I think any of the 30/338 Lapua and improved versions, Wolf, Allen Xpress, etc, would be best. Best brass, shorter case length leaving more room for the bullet, etc. But most of us here are stuck with RUMs so that's mostly who would be buying the bullets.

I really didn't mean to hijack this thread into a 30 Cal discussion, guys. Sorry. But I thought the subject was more of a debate in general, not simply limited to 338 Cal (very few here actually use .375/.408 Chey Tac, 50 Cal, etc for hunting) so I thought the smaller calibers should be mentioned. Starting with the next one down....

 

[edge]

SNIP

Edge,

How well do your sabots release, and transfer spin?

Best,
Noel

They work quite well, actually better that my capabilities on paper targets, and they work quite well on deer.
My twist is marginal for the bullets I am using so at sometime I will need to have a new barrel made. Since it is a barrel for a 458 win mag the twist is only a 14 which puts the stability well below what most folks would find to be acceptable. The bullet holes are all round though.

edge.

 

[J E Custom]

This has been a very good and in lightning debate and I wanted to learn as much as I
could before adding my experiences with this subject.

The first experience I had with the solid bullet was in a 416 rem mag. The reason I chose
the barnes was they were one of the first to produce an expanding solid.(In the past
everyone was making Non-Expanding solids for dangerous game and extreme long range
target shooting.

I had used all of the jacketed bullets for the big bores (.375 to .458) with mixed results on
game.

The big solid worked well and was very consistent shot to shot. However fowling was very
bad and extreme cleaning was nessary after every range session.To help solve this I had to
Molly coat every bullet and deal with the Molly.

Thinking I had found the best of all things in a bullet( High BCs,Controlled expansion,More
velocity By using Molly and good accuracy, I bought some .284 and .308 Dia. Barnes x bullets
and learned a valuable lesson!!!! (THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET FOR EVERY CAL AND USE).

At the higher velocities they would shed the petals and the wound channels would vary shot to
shot.

I still like and use the Barnes solids for big bores and and have no reason to change but on smaller calibers I use an assortment of different bullets based on there intended use and
performance requirements.

So In my opinion there is no "ONE" magic bullet for all applications, And There is only one way to establish true BCs and that is to shoot them at all distances in your barrel not a test barrel, And
performance of any bullet should be based on many trials not one or two before a judgment is
made.

Opinions will still vary because experiences bullet performance will vary.

After doing an inventory on the different brands of bullets that I use in the weapons I have I
came up with Accubonds,Partitions,Ballistic tips,Hornady V-Max,Berger VLDs,Sierra Match Kings,
Sierra Game kings,Speer Grand slams,Woodledge Sledgehammers,Swift A Frames, Barnes X and
XMCs ,Banded solids (Non Expanding) Both flat nose and pointed and all meet the needs of
the purpose intended.

Well after proofing my own post I guess the debate will go on because I sure as hell didn't
clear it up.

I have learned some technical reasons for some of my observations so all is good.

J E CUSTOM

 

[noel carlson]

Jon,

Thanks for the appraisal on caliber usage history, and current state, within the hunting community. It is always helpful to understand evolution of popular preferences, and the possible openings for innovation which a comprehensive reassessment provides. The 30 caliber appears to be a fertile niche for exploration.

JE,

I agree there is no single solution to all problems, but there is a best solution to an isolated objective. In this case, I am a combining ELR aeroballistics with reliable expansion over a broad velocity range in .338 .

I think all of us have been using the term "magic bullet" tongue-in-cheek. Succeeding in the limited task stated above is less magic, and more focused design work.

Edge,

I am interested in your sabot. Let's discuss details off-line if you are willing.

Best,
Noel

 

[edge]

SNIP

Edge,

I am interested in your sabot. Let's discuss details off-line if you are willing.

Best,
Noel

I am more than happy to discuss, but if you noticed these are for muzzleloaders, and a large part of the accuracy ( IMO ) is that they are Pre-rifled for the barrel. I cnc machine these with a 1:14 twist.
Sorry if I was not clear about this.
These are 150 grain 0.308 NAB's in 0.458 sabots

If still interested send me a PM or email.

edge.

 

[noel carlson]

Edge,

Muzzle loading would be problematic, but they do look good. What material are you using?

- Noel