The 450 Bushmaster Hammer

[Dirtrax]

For my load and platform the difference between 1800 fps and 1300 fps is an additional 175 yds in effective range.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

If you are comfortable with 1300 fps impacts on game then I recommend testing your chosen bullet to be sure it does what you expect. Pretty easy test. Set up a gallon milk jug of water, at the distance where you will be down to 1300 fps, with a box of newspaper behind it. You should see the bullet perform inside the single milk jug and the newspaper is there just to stop the bullet. Getting an expanding bullet to work at pistol vel well enough for good terminal performance is a big ask. A flat front bullet like a hard cast or shotgun slug would be a better choice as they are starting out already in their terminal form. Problem is they don't fly very far.

More horse power would be a better choice. My .02

 

[cohunt]

If you are comfortable with 1300 fps impacts on game then I recommend testing your chosen bullet to be sure it does what you expect. Pretty easy test. Set up a gallon milk jug of water, at the distance where you will be down to 1300 fps, with a box of newspaper behind it. You should see the bullet perform inside the single milk jug and the newspaper is there just to stop the bullet. Getting an expanding bullet to work at pistol vel well enough for good terminal performance is a big ask. A flat front bullet like a hard cast or shotgun slug would be a better choice as they are starting out already in their terminal form. Problem is they don't fly very far.

More horse power would be a better choice. My .02

You bullets are designed for higher impact speeds and pretty much guarantee clean kills no matter of shot placement ( to a degree)-- but there are plenty of successful pistol and subsonic hunters out there too.

That's what's so great about the good ol us of a --- lots of options for all the different opinions of the multitude of people.

I hunt with your hh and ahh bullets in over 1/2 dozen cartridges. I'm intrigued by your new 450 bullet/design-- but I'm not opposed to looking at other options either-- that size bullet makes a large hole for sure-- just because another company claims their bullet design opens at a slower speed doesn't mean we would go that low for our own personal preferences

Your 1800fps minimum would shut me off at 150 yards with 1650 ft lbs (estimating speeds off of my other handloads)--- 1300fps would put my limit at 300 yards with 850 ft lbs-- for me personally 300/850 is too low for me but I'd prefer somewhere in between as your 1800fps limits me in this cartridge -- your bullet may indeed perform at lower speeds but is yet to be tested ( why I'd love to see some real world testing as it always trumps claims)

If I were hunting subsonic I would look for a different design than either bullet.

Once more testing is done we can have better comparisons and pick which bullet performs best for our hunting preferences and conditions.

Hopefully this post doesn't come off as any hh bashing-- thats not its intent. I love seeing more options for the cartridges I use and your bullets have served me well so far and always seem to be in stock. Thanks again for your contribution to handloaders and this great forum.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

You bullets are designed for higher impact speeds and pretty much guarantee clean kills no matter of shot placement ( to a degree)-- but there are plenty of successful pistol and subsonic hunters out there too.

That's what's so great about the good ol us of a --- lots of options for all the different opinions of the multitude of people.

I hunt with your hh and ahh bullets in over 1/2 dozen cartridges. I'm intrigued by your new 450 bullet/design-- but I'm not opposed to looking at other options either-- that size bullet makes a large hole for sure-- just because another company claims their bullet design opens at a slower speed doesn't mean we would go that low for our own personal preferences

Your 1800fps minimum would shut me off at 150 yards with 1650 ft lbs (estimating speeds off of my other handloads)--- 1300fps would put my limit at 300 yards with 850 ft lbs-- for me personally 300/850 is too low for me but I'd prefer somewhere in between as your 1800fps limits me in this cartridge -- your bullet may indeed perform at lower speeds but is yet to be tested ( why I'd love to see some real world testing as it always trumps claims)

If I were hunting subsonic I would look for a different design than either bullet.

Once more testing is done we can have better comparisons and pick which bullet performs best for our hunting preferences and conditions.

Hopefully this post doesn't come off as any hh bashing-- thats not its intent. I love seeing more options for the cartridges I use and your bullets have served me well so far and always seem to be in stock. Thanks again for your contribution to handloaders and this great forum.

I think you are saying exactly the same thing that I am. There is two things that play into low vel impacts for hunting. What the individual is comfortable with and does the bullet actually function down to that stated vel. Low velocity impacts is the only place that we have inflicted our opinion on our customers. We chose 1800 fps as a min impact vel for clean kills. We test down to 1800 fps and have never tried to see how low we can get any of our bullets to function. 1800 is the floor that we personally feel humane kills happen. That said, bigger calibers make bigger holes. After all the testing we have done with low vel, I have a healthy skepticism when bullets are advertised to be good for hunting at very low velocity. Some will say that if the bullet shows the slightest of deformation then it worked. That is why I say test it yourself.

I also want to add. Your first lines says we design our bullets for high vel. Yes that is true, but I want to make sure that people understand that they do not need high vel to work. They work very well at low vel.

I hope that makes more sense.

 

[Dirtrax]

If you are comfortable with 1300 fps impacts on game then I recommend testing your chosen bullet to be sure it does what you expect. Pretty easy test. Set up a gallon milk jug of water, at the distance where you will be down to 1300 fps, with a box of newspaper behind it. You should see the bullet perform inside the single milk jug and the newspaper is there just to stop the bullet. Getting an expanding bullet to work at pistol vel well enough for good terminal performance is a big ask. A flat front bullet like a hard cast or shotgun slug would be a better choice as they are starting out already in their terminal form. Problem is they don't fly very far.

More horse power would be a better choice. My .02

Large, heavy, and slow has been a successful tactic since the beginning of firearms. That being said regardless the cut-off for reliable expansion I'm one to leave a margin of error. The CE bullet is designed specifically for the 450 BM.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Large, heavy, and slow has been a successful tactic since the beginning of firearms. That being said regardless the cut-off for reliable expansion I'm one to leave a margin of error. The CE bullet is designed specifically for the 450 BM.

Yes, particularly with blunt, flat nosed bullets or round balls that do not need any expansion.

 

[imartin]

Got out yesterday. Chrono was giving my fits reading shots so I missed out on most data. However, when it did read, the readings seemed accurate based on expectations and other guns I was shooting. I ran a powder ladder from 40-50 gr of lil gun, 1 shot each, 1 full gr increment increases. This is a much larger increment than I would normally use, but bc pressure was in the 30K's to start I didn't want to blow through $200 worth of bullets to find the velocity I wanted.

All in all really enjoyed shooting my B14 HMR with the SiCo break on it. The mag that bergara sent with my rifle doesn't feed 450 bushmaster and falls out with the higher velocity charges. So will be looking for a new mag.

I did not experience any symptoms related to high pressure. Bolt lift was easy, no extractor marks, primers looked the same from 1 to 10.

Last shot clocked 2855 fps @ 50 grs lil' gun. And landed next to the 49 gr load. This is where I wanted to be, probably will not waste resources exploring much higher. Will load groups up in this range and go from there. 221 gr at 2,850 fps is going to crush anything I hit with it.

Gun has 14 shots on it after 1st trip out. A little early to do load development but wanted to get an idea, do some more shooting this summer, and fine tune in early fall.

Will keep you all posted on my progress if you're interested.

 

[Dirtrax]

Excellent! Remember with this cartridge that you probably won't see the typical signs of over pressure until it's too late. However the guy (LeGendre?) that developed this cartridge loads it to higher pressure than sammi settled on. This was supported by pressure testing.
Over on 450Bushmaster.net there is considerable discussion on crimping techniques that is worthwhile reading.

 

[imartin]

Excellent! Remember with this cartridge that you probably won't see the typical signs of over pressure until it's too late. However the guy (LeGendre?) that developed this cartridge loads it to higher pressure than sammi settled on. This was supported by pressure testing.
Over on 450Bushmaster.net there is considerable discussion on crimping techniques that is worthwhile reading.

If I had to guess I figure I'm in the 50K psi range. As I mentioned brass looks fine, extraction was easy, etc. But I'm not going to test for absolute max, I don't have a need for it.

I used the lee crimp die. It applied about .004" crimp if I measured correctly. I'm going to roll with that, shoot some groups, see how things go, but that will be an area I tweak first if accuracy is all over.

 

[Alibiiv]

I started with lil' gun. Loading a ladder to check pressure. Book data for 225 gr says max load is 42.2 gr @ 2,495 fps and I believe pressure is 36k-39k range at that level. Should work in your AR. For my bolt gun I expect I will be able to run much higher, but will be working up to it and will let my rifle and brass tell me when it's too much.

Curious if you can help me out. I read your reply and you mentioned "Book Data", would you let me know what book you are writing about. I have some 221 gr Shock Hammers, and for some reason I keep striking out on load data. I do not know if my books are outdated or what. From all the data I have, there does not seem to be anything for lighter bullets. I am not new to reloading, I am just new to this cartridge and cannot seem to find a manual that has loads for lighter bullets. I am trying to put some loads together for my son's Bushmaster that is built on an AR platform. I've got 4lbs of Lil Gun, new dies and new crimp dies, and....frustrated as hell because I cannot find what ought to be simple to find!!!

 

[imartin]

They won't have data for hammers, I reference a similar weight bullet, and work up.

Reloading Data Center

www.hodgdonreloading.com

 

[Alibiiv]

They won't have data for hammers, I reference a similar weight bullet, and work up.

Reloading Data Center

www.hodgdonreloading.com

View attachment 381786

Okay thank you for getting back to me on this. It is appreciated.

 

[Alibiiv]

They won't have data for hammers, I reference a similar weight bullet, and work up.

Reloading Data Center

www.hodgdonreloading.com

View attachment 381786

Okay thank you for this reply. i did email Steve at Hammer Bullets and he sent this information as well. They're a good company to do business with, and this forum is full of a lot of great people. I've reall been stuck trying to find information on this load data. We're getting read for a black bear hunt next mont, and were trying to get this gun up and running. If we're lucky we'll have some photos on 221gr Shock Hammers out out of the Bushmaster from an AR platform. We're confident that they're going to work and do what they're supposed to do. Thank you again for the information.

 

[powermax]

If I had to guess I figure I'm in the 50K psi range. As I mentioned brass looks fine, extraction was easy, etc. But I'm not going to test for absolute max, I don't have a need for it.

I used the lee crimp die. It applied about .004" crimp if I measured correctly. I'm going to roll with that, shoot some groups, see how things go, but that will be an area I tweak first if accuracy is all over.

@imartin
this has my interest, did you make any headway with load development?
I live in Ohio and restricted to Straight-Wall, slugs or Muzzleloaders,. would like to have a 400 yrd. Straight-Wall rifle