Stop neck sizing your brass!!!

[TwoMore]

I think today I see guys running such High pressure loads and big charge densities the majority of the shooters have to FL size. most of the time when I am reloading for a cartridge that is prone for pressure like my rouges I measure my cases before sizing and even tho my die is set to bump back from the maximum dimension that will chamber, most of the time the case is the same length and diameter they were before sizing, so did I actually fl size or only neck size

 

[Buck Buster]

I don't know which is actually "better" but I do it both ways depending on which rifle I'm shooting and which dies I happened to have bought at the time. For semi-autos I always FL size. For decades I only FL sized all rounds. For some some bolts I neck size, others I full size. I don't necessarily see a difference in accuracy. Concentricity is no better on neck than FL sizing. Basic FL RCBS 243 dies give me .001+, same with RCBS bushing neck dies if I'm careful.
Neck sizing is definitely an easier process and does work the brass less so I prefer it. But yes, it means FL sizing every 3rd or 4th firing.

I agree with you, it depends on what the gun likes, and the belted magnums are a little different then most cases, head space is measured different. Another thing to think about ; I have seen muzzle loaders shoot as tight of a group as some center fire rifles, there is no casing and a bullet going down the tub inside a piece of plastic shouldn't result in any type of accuracy or concentricity. I think this proves that a large part of accuracy is the quality of the barrel, the bullet being used, and enough speed to make it all come together. You don't even use a case. Just food for thought. Again everyone has the RIGHT to their own opinion, and ALL opinions should be welcome. Hope that 2018 is the best year for hunting and shooting for EVERYONE and be safe.

 

[Buck Buster]

Though I would post another one to keep it going but thought I would try logic this time.

1= What happens when you full length size a cartridge case = It no longer fits the chamber. What difference does that Make ? The most accurate rifles in the world are bag guns (They have no cartridge case, because it would be to big to handle) But the chamber remains exactly the same Every time it is fired.

When sizing a case, many things will prevent it from being exactly the same dimensions as the dies. Thickness differences, spring back, the amount of sizing, Orientation in the chamber when fired, ETC

The less you size, the better the fit in the chamber and the more consistent the case volume will be also the less case stretch you will have that changes the internal volume. Is that Bad ?

There are lots of references to the old days and the now. In the old days bench rest shooters never sized there cases, they were chamber to fit the case and the bullet would be pushed in by hand with just enough grip to hold the bullet in place and then seated against the lands when closing the bolt. They would even orient the case logo in the chamber for consistence. Some even used the same case for every shot (This was the most consistent way Back then). Some still practice
this process. But now it is more common to do some sizing and sort cases for consistency. Could it be that components are better now, chambers are better, barrels are better, stocks are better ?

I cant help but believe that if these practices were still used along with the better components that better results would be possible.

This is a hurry up world and everything takes to much time for the net gain for most. Some will take the time if only to improve a few thousandths. most wont and for there application it may not be necessary.

No one will ever convince ether side of this debate that they are right or wrong. So why try. Apply logic to your argument and don't listen to anyone and then decide.

Keep it going !!!! Your logic is spot on!!

J E CUSTOM

 

[Lonewolf74]

^^^^^
This

**** shame I had to read through 8 pages to get to it and it is the most important aspect IMO

You have to find out the internal dimensions of your chamber and use that dimension to then set your shoulder back .001" to .002" to be accurate. IOW if you set your FL die or Body Die to set the shoulder back on once fired brass the probability that you are sizing too much is about 85% IMO. On belted case the probability is 100%. I have measured belted case shoulders that have moved .030" forward and once fired will not move the shoulder that much. It takes 3 or 4 firings.

To do that you need to neck size UNTIL you get a crush fit and then full length if you want to.

Personally, I prefer Lee Collets and Redding Body Dies. Don't like jerking expander balls through necks and bushing dies do not yield as low a runout number as Lee Collets.

YMMV

Just a question on this. Would your brass eventually stretch to your chamber dimensions with FL resizing if your just bumping the shoulder back from the fired measurement?

 

[Greyfox]

Just a question on this. Would your brass eventually stretch to your chamber dimensions with FL resizing if your just bumping the shoulder back from the fired measurement?

Yes, the brass will eventually stretch to the chamber size. If you set the head space of your bump dye(or FL due) prior to your case expanding to the full chamber size, you will end up bumping the shoulder farther then the preferred .001"-.002" from the full length chamber size. This would defeat the propose of FL sizing or shoulder bump sizing.

 

[bigedp51]

Just a question on this. Would your brass eventually stretch to your chamber dimensions with FL resizing if your just bumping the shoulder back from the fired measurement?

No, full length resized brass has elastic qualities and after firing wants to spring back to its resize shape. The only part of a full length resized case that touches the chamber walls is the case shoulder. The ejector and the firing pin will push the case forward until it contacts the chambers shoulder. Full length resizing is "the cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in the violin case". Meaning full length resizing gives the case wiggle room to let the bullet be self aligning with the axis of the bore.

Below Mr. Salizar explains the benefits of full length resizing. Again this is because if the case does not have uniform case wall thickness the case warps when fired. And this causes the base of the case to be tilted. And a neck sized case will contact the bolt face and will make the warped case tilt in the chamber. With full length resizing with the proper shoulder bump the base of the case and body of the case is not contacting the bolt face and chamber walls.

Reloading: Partial Neck Sizing
by German A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/06/reloading-partial-neck-sizing.html

"Now the last scenario, a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway."

 

[Lonewolf74]

Yes, the brass will eventually stretch to the chamber size. If you set the head space of your bump dye(or FL due) prior to your case expanding to the full chamber size, you will end up bumping the shoulder farther then the preferred .001"-.002" from the full length chamber size. This would defeat the propose of FL sizing or shoulder bump sizing.

Ok so if I measure after each firing and set the die to bump the shoulder .001 or less back from that measurement I can still achieve finding the exact head space?

 

[bigedp51]

Below shows "head clearance" which corresponds to the amount of shoulder bump of a full length resized case. And the amount of shoulder bump decreases any influence a warped case will have with the bullet and the bore.

The real argument about full length and neck sizing is the quality of the case and cartridge fit and alignment with the chamber and bore.

 

[Saracen]

Don't Know what the dude said all I had was a silent film. I have always just neck sized only, my magnum calibers and have never had any noticeable problems with the cases have loaded some when doing test loads 10 times or more. I only use them for deer hunting, one is a 300 win. mag. that's a carry gun. The oldest is a 308 Norma mag bench gun that is a real shooter out over 1300 yards. This is what I was taught by guys at the Original 1000 yard bench rest club of Williamsport PA. I know they do things that a lot of other people probably don't do or wouldn't do, but they were shooting many 10 shot groups at 1000 yards that were under 6". As far as I know that's all that any of them did, and many of them barely started to resize the neck very little just enough to keep the bullet from falling out, they then finish seating the bullet inside the rifle against the lands. This was to ensure they were all uniformly seated against the lands and they would be shot then. They were all competition shooters. I may have at the most had a split neck or two but I don't even remember any of them yet. I get a lot more cases going bad with two calibers that I full length resize and they are my 30-06 and a 222. I have even had them start to show hair line cracks mid case but they were loaded many times. I believe the case will weaken faster from full length resizing than from neck resizing only. Its like bending any other piece of metal back and forth enough times it will break, much like a soda can tab.

I couldn't agree more, as my experience with 300 WM yields the same results.

 

[bigedp51]

Ok so if I measure after each firing and set the die to bump the shoulder .001 or less back from that measurement I can still achieve finding the exact head space?

If you have a headspace gauge and a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge you can determine the chambers actual headspace length.

Below a Colt Field headspace gauge at 1.4736

Below the same headspace gauge in my adjusted Hornady gauge.

Below a fired case in the adjusted Hornady gauge that is very close to actual chamber headspace length.

Before anyone want to argue, a headspace gauge only tells you if the bolt will close between the GO and NO-GO gauges and not actual chamber headspace.

Below a .308/7.62 headspace gauge set in .001 increments and with these gauges you still only know to approximately .001 your chambers headspace length.

You can also put a fired spent primer in a fired case using just your fingers. And then chamber the case letting the bolt face seat the primer and measure the case again. The amount the primer is protruding will be any spring back of the case shoulder after firing.

Bottom line my vernier calipers are accurate to .0005 so any measurement will be plus or minus .0005. And close enough for the average reloader that doesn't have headspace OCD.

 

[Saracen]

I follow Eric, I went to collet, body dies and FL bushing dies.
This debate.... is like the barrel break in debate!
It's hard to argue with that huge stack of medals Eric has.

I'm in the UK, and shoot with Colin ShoShortho who's a world class F Class shooter, and he neck sizes.
Who really wants to muck around lubing case bodies then degreasing , to only produce a sloppier fitting round than you can produce with a simple neck sizing?

 

[ctw]

I have a confession to make. I too am a neck-sizer, have been for the last 40 or more years. I just can't break the habit. For some unknown reason all my rifles shoot tighter groups from that practice. With my head hung low, and a grievous heart I make this confession. yours truly ctw

 

[gohring3006]

I'm in the UK, and shoot with Colin ShoShortho who's a world class F Class shooter, and he neck sizes.
Who really wants to muck around lubing case bodies then degreasing , to only produce a sloppier fitting round than you can produce with a simple neck sizing?

I mess around with lubing cases because it's more consistent. I'm pretty sure that's why most do it, some do it for feeding reliability, not me though, it's for consistency..

 

[bigngreen]

A lot of "one hole" groups being thrown out here, I'd like to see some ranges and agg numbers put to those also. Tom M has Agg numbers and ranges up online for everyone to see and I'm not seeing any one hole groups even though he's crushing 1000 yard records.
It never hurts to look at what the guys who are shooting better than you are doing to do it, it's called learning not opinions, opinions are for those who quite learning and testing.