So what wrong with a .243 on Elk?

[bigngreen]

Well, it appears that our Idaho bulls wandered over your way---------------no thirds here either. But, hey, you can't eat thirds.

Randy

They don't have to wander far, I'm sitting on the boarder half the time waiting for them to try to make it back to Idaho gun)

We're seeing some large bulls now, my boss has 1200 or so elk come down on the pivots and he's taken few bulls for 6 years now and we have some 7 1/2 year olds this year in the 380+ range, last year they wacked one in that age group at 376 and change

 

[Greg Duerr]

As far as loosing animals even though the animal was hit hard or in the right place................. If any animal is hit in the lungs, will it recover, will it survive, can an Elk hit in the lungs run for miles........... From a pure medical standpoint could an Elk shot through one lung or both survive?

I was under the impression that any animal with a lung shot would not go vary far. If the lung is missed it will go a long long way, and may recover. The issue I have is unless you recover the animal you have no idea of how well it was hit......................or if it was hit at all.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

The more I read your posts the more it seems you fit into the pot stirrer or troll category. An elk and other larger animals can recover from only one lung being hit and they can go a lot further than you ever will trying to recover them. A bull hit through both lungs with a small caliber that doesn't leave a big wound channel to cause a fairly rapid bleedout can also go a lot further than you ever will trying to recover it before it dies!

 

[HARPERC]

....... From a pure medical standpoint could an Elk shot through one lung or both survive?

Lungs are not big balloons that are either popped or not! They branch into lobes and segments. In humans 5 lobes, 3 right, 2 left. 10 segments right-8-10 left. Blood flow is two parts, systemic which is a high pressure system that will bleed profusely, and a pulmonary system that is a low pressure system that does not bleed well. Other anatomy and physiology responses in play as well, too many too list here. Google penetrating wounds and you'll get more insight as to the possibilities. In terms of absolutes there aren't any, Google speargun to the head, good placement, and penetration, with decent caliber, fellow lived to tell the story. Its probabilities and preferences. A couple of decades ago Idaho F&G had a small article in the local paper about collared elk, their bottom line was only about a third of rifle kills were recovered, about a fifth of arrow kills. Small study group, and I'll guarantee some were found and left in the canyons. No attempt at all to determine calibers etc.. Other than limiting rifles to 16 lbs I can't recall, any other legal limits imposed on elk hunting equipment. Yes I believe an elk might survive the bullet wound, but predators and winter will have their say also.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

the last time I was in Scheels in Great Falls, which has been quite a few years now, there were a number of nice bulls on the wall that had been shot with a 243. I have a friend that is 4 for 4 taking bulls with a 243... maybe more now, that was a couple years ago. Would I hunt bull elk with a 243? If it was the only rifle I had... yes. I would use bullet to cause max damage to both lungs as possible and limit my range to ensure penetration of both lungs.

That said, I have a choice of rifles and my choice will be a 30 cal rifle, and since long range shots are on the menu, it will be a large powerful 30 cal.

It's all about the odds fellas. Put a hole through both lungs and the critter will die. The question is when and where. You can bring up all kinds of anecdotal stories about how a bull shot with a 338 ran for a mile or how a 233 dropped one in it's tracks. Not all animals act the same when shot. I've seen a buck antelope shot with a 1" entrance hole and 2" exit hole through both lungs take off like it wasn't hit and sprint in a 100 yd death circle before it piled up. When he took off, I thought to myself awwww $#!T

Bigger bullets make bigger holes. Bigger holes drain bloodmore quickly. The quicker the blood drains and blood pressure drops, the sooner the brain dies from lack of oxygen. Some critters might get a last shot of adrenalin before expiring while others succumb more quickly. Some might be incapacitated by CNS shock.

I choose to improve the odds.

 

[Greg Duerr]

My original post was not intended to stur up anything.............I have no experiance hunting Elk other than the one Bull I shot almost 9 years ago. That one experiance showed me that a Large Bull Elk can take a lot of lead. There are other guys that I talked to that shoot Elk every year with a 25-06. However, after all that I have heard and read it seems that the 30cal it the way to go. I just dont like the idea of a heavy recoiling rifle, or one that is heavy. I did look at a Cooper Excaliber 300 Win Mag that was very confortable to hold but I would guess that it would really kick. Thus far I can only think of the .280 AI as my next rifle. I did see a Weatherby MK V in the 7mm Weatherby Magnum with a factory MB for $800, have no idea of how they shoot.
It kind of like the Binoculars I saving up to by, I want to buy what I really need so that I dont have to wonder about what Im missing.
How many of you guys use your 300 Mag to hunt Deer with?

I guess that there are Elk Cartridges and Deer Cartridges but if you were going to hunt Deer 70% of the time and Elk 25% of the time what would you shoot

G

 

[Broz]

How many of you guys use your 300 Mag to hunt Deer with?

I guess that there are Elk Cartridges and Deer Cartridges but if you were going to hunt Deer 70% of the time and Elk 25% of the time what would you shoot

G

Greg, last year I shot everything from antelope, coyote, deer and elk with my 300 win. It weighs in under 12# with a 2lb Nightforce and a bipod. I am 55 this year and I put in my back pack and go. My 5'2" wife has shot 2 elk with it, one at 425 one at 585 yds. Recoil is nothing. Last season I took 2 guys over 70 yrs old to kill their elk. One stoned a bull at 777 the other a cow at 780. All of these one shot kills from guys that don't even shoot long rage. I took a 12 yr old for his first bull, he shot his bull at 550 and no mention of recoil or noise. We have taken large mule deer at as far as 891 yards, elk to 1000, many at 800, I took my biggest bull with this rifle at 636, I took antelope last year with it at 805, 1005, and 1285 again all one shot kills. I have had 2 very petite ladies her to practice this summer shooting targets to 1000 yds. No recoil or noise complaints. Your worries of recoil and noise are coming from lack of education. This is a great set up to hunt everything in North America!!! Now if you want a 280 go for it. But if you want 1 rifle to practice with, get to know, get good with and fill freezers, the 300 win is a great choice. Or I guess you can build another rifle in 2 more years as your skill set improves and you want more.lightbulb

Jeff

 

[bigngreen]

Last year my buddy took an antelope with a 338 RUM with a 300gr Berger and a couple elk with a 270 Win, it does not matter what we're after we just grab a rifle that seems good for the day and go pile up a body count.

You need to just take what you have and go kill a couple elk and quite banging on your key board!!!!!!!

 

[Greg Duerr]

Jeff

I cant argue with anything you have said, and yes your right I have no education on this subject. I dont want to look back and wish I had bought a 300. I have a .243 with a McMillian Remington Sporter stock on a 700 action with a #4 24in barrel that I enjoy shooting. I have no idea of how much it weighs, it might be nice to know howerver.
In your opinion does the 300 need a MB? Would a 26 Inch Barrel be enough? What barrel contour would be your choice ? Do you hike a lot with your 300? and how is the noise level shooting your 300 without ear protection out hunting? I would guess that you shoot only one bullet in your 300 all the time for Elk, Deer, or Antelope what bullet is that? Do you like the thumb hole stock over the standard one ?
Looking back on the 300 I use to kill my bull ..................it was really pleasant to hunt with. I believe it was a Rem 700 Laminated stock stainless action and barrel, would guess that it had a 24in barrel and had a factory MB..............
Im going to pick up and handle some 300's and just learn somthing.........

Its like buying the 12x50 Swarovski's ...............I dont have to wonder what Im missing out on .

Greg

 

[Broz]

Yes you need a muzzle brake. I brake everything even my 6br. I like seeing my hits and the added accuracy the brake gives at distance. Not to even mention it makes the 300 win a kitty cat to shoot.

I shoot the 215 Berger now all the time. No need to change loads it works fine for everything I want to hunt at all distances and bucks the wind very well.

I will not tell you not to wear hearing protection. The brake does add some noise. But I have taken several shots out in open country with no protection. If I am practicing or close to any objects like a truck or rock that will send the noise back I wear foam plugs. They cost a quarter a set and they are in my bag, pocket, around my neck on a string or what ever. Any rifle blast can be damaging to ears, why not just get in the habit to use them most of the time with any rifle or hand gun.

My favorite contour is a Sendero. I have set up several with 26" tubes that shot well at 1000 yards. The JP brake I use will add about 1 1/2" if installed correctly.

I have hiked in on some long hikes. Average is probably about 2 to 3 miles a day in mild mountain terrain for me. With a long hike being 4 to 5 miles in.

Yes I like the thumb hole stock and so does everyone that shoots it.

Go look at a Sendero someplace. That should give you a good idea of the feel and weight of a rifle I prefer.

I guess you didn't read the thread from my last years hunts I gave you the link to. It not only would answer a lot of these questions but would show you photos of all I have stated.

One more thing. You have a 243AI, is a 280 really a large enough step? I think a 300 would better complement your line up and open more doors with room to grow. If I had a 22 LR and wanted to step up a 22 mag would be a step up. But a 223 would do all the 22 mag would and lots more. Does that make any sense?

Jeff

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Jeff

I cant argue with anything you have said, and yes your right I have no education on this subject. I dont want to look back and wish I had bought a 300. I have a .243 with a McMillian Remington Sporter stock on a 700 action with a #4 24in barrel that I enjoy shooting. I have no idea of how much it weighs, it might be nice to know howerver.
In your opinion does the 300 need a MB? Would a 26 Inch Barrel be enough? What barrel contour would be your choice ? Do you hike a lot with your 300? and how is the noise level shooting your 300 without ear protection out hunting? I would guess that you shoot only one bullet in your 300 all the time for Elk, Deer, or Antelope what bullet is that? Do you like the thumb hole stock over the standard one ?
Looking back on the 300 I use to kill my bull ..................it was really pleasant to hunt with. I believe it was a Rem 700 Laminated stock stainless action and barrel, would guess that it had a 24in barrel and had a factory MB..............
Im going to pick up and handle some 300's and just learn somthing.........

Its like buying the 12x50 Swarovski's ...............I dont have to wonder what Im missing out on .

Greg

Greg,

My post wasn't directed at you particularly, just a general soap box statement for the audience. It's just commo0n sense really.

If my friend goes hunting elk with his 243 or if Rhian (bingreen) who I also consider a firend, picks what ever rifle, I say nothing to them. They are both experienced big boys who can make their own decisions. Bigger isn't the only way to go, it's just better from a pragmatic view. Like I said, I choose to improve the odds if I can.

As for recoil, there are a number of ways to deal with it including but not limited to installing a brake. I used a slip on recoil pad for my 300 RUM for a couple of years and eventually I learned to shoot without it. There's a lot of technique involved. I got a brake installed on my recent 300 RUM build.

Weight... My rifles weigh about 12 lbs with NF scopes and bi-pods. You could maybe shave that down to 8 with an ultra light and lesser scope and bi-pod. 4lb diff. Think about it. Is 2-4 lb going to handicap you? How much does your day pack and glass weigh? Do you have a few lbs around the waist you could loose? I do If a couple of extra lbs of rifle in the field is going to be a deal breaker, should you even be there at all? My fitness is a lot bigger issue than my rifle weight.

I used to hunt everything with a 7 RM and never felt undergunned, including elk, and I still wouldn't at short to mid ranges. Still, I feel better with the big 30.

My 300 RUM will weigh about 3 lbs more than your 243 all decked out and the recoil is not an issue, with or without the brake.

If I only had one rifle for everything, yotes, deer, antelope, elk, bear, whatever, it would probably be something like a 300 Dakota. Better to overgunned for the smaller critters than undergunned for the bigger ones. And.... I'm not necessarily saying you're under gunned with a 243. A bigger bullet will increase the odds of you putting that bull down where you want it. My second rifle would probably be something in the 6 - 6.5 range. Start big and work down.

I also like the Sendero style rifle for long range and it helps absorb some recoil.

Cheers

 

[HARPERC]

the last time I was in Scheels in Great Falls, which has been quite a few years now, there were a number of nice bulls on the wall that had been shot with a 243. I have a friend that is 4 for 4 taking bulls with a 243... maybe more now, that was a couple years ago. Would I hunt bull elk with a 243? If it was the only rifle I had... yes. I would use bullet to cause max damage to both lungs as possible and limit my range to ensure penetration of both lungs.

That said, I have a choice of rifles and my choice will be a 30 cal rifle, and since long range shots are on the menu, it will be a large powerful 30 cal.

It's all about the odds fellas. Put a hole through both lungs and the critter will die. The question is when and where. You can bring up all kinds of anecdotal stories about how a bull shot with a 338 ran for a mile or how a 233 dropped one in it's tracks. Not all animals act the same when shot. I've seen a buck antelope shot with a 1" entrance hole and 2" exit hole through both lungs take off like it wasn't hit and sprint in a 100 yd death circle before it piled up. When he took off, I thought to myself awwww $#!T

Bigger bullets make bigger holes. Bigger holes drain bloodmore quickly. The quicker the blood drains and blood pressure drops, the sooner the brain dies from lack of oxygen. Some critters might get a last shot of adrenalin before expiring while others succumb more quickly. Some might be incapacitated by CNS shock.

I choose to improve the odds.

There's the truth well said!

 

[Greg Duerr]

Jeff

All that makes sence I will just have to educate myself and handle some sendaro's to get the fell of what you talking about.


You dont necessarily shoot Berger Hunting bullets do? .............I see that a lot of guys use Berger Target bullets to hunt with.

The 300 will give me more room to grow..................good point.

G

 

[Elkmen]

Shot my first elk in 1961 with a 180 gr Partition using an 06. 10 years later I bought a 300 WM and have never looked back. You can kill an elk with just about anything as the posts here prove. I have seen them killed with 250's on up. But if you want to kill it cleanly and ethically time after time, one must use enough gun and bullet. I personally know of 4 elk killed with 6 mm caliber rifles. One was recovered the other 3 lost. Small bullets make small holes, small wound channels and leave "no" room for error. If one can make a perfect shot "every" time then caliber makes little difference. If your part of the 90+ % that occasionally does not make the perfect shot then use the largest cartridge that you can shoot accurately. Elk are big, tough and will wander into some of the most nasty country on the planet, when wounded. On dry hard ground with little blood they are not likely to be recovered.