Serious question about caliber and elk potential

[406pat]

Bottom line... know the capabilities and limitations of your rifle, load and yourself.

-MR

+1 to that. That's what responsible hunters do. Hunting isn't the time to get macho and show off to your buddy that you can hit that elk that's "probably 700 out there". Save that for practice or rock busting. Hunting is about KNOWING you can make the shot. You've practiced the shot and you know your equipment can make the shot. Doesn't matter if its 10 yards or 1000, if you don't feel confident don't take it. Hunting big game isn't the time to try a shot for the first time. A lot of guys can hit WAY out there but only do so in practice. (I'm probably quoting this wrong but in one of his articles Shawn Carlock talks about checking drop using some 1500 yd+ shots, not because he intended to shoot that far but because if you're drops are on at 1500 they will be on at 700. He also talked about how practicing at extreme range makes long range look short!)
If you know you can put a bullet in the boiler room at that range and the bullet will perform at that range then go for it. If there's any doubt don't. I've taken elk at 400 yards with my .270 win but it was a shot I had practiced and the shot was a perfect broadside. Wouldn't have taken it if the elk was another 50 yards out because 400 is where my loads for that setup start to drop off the table and I wouldn't feel confident in a hit.

 

[angus-5024]

To be honest, I'm kind of offended that because I shoot a .338 RUM at 100-600 yards I am "macho". I have grown up shooting larger rifles all my life. I think that by far the most important factors are shot placment and distance, but becuase I dont mind the recoil of a braked .338 RUM I am puffing my chest. I dont have an issue with people using a 270 on elk, I just decided that I liked a bigger cal. One reason for a larger caliber is becuase I hunt in grizzly territory and can only afford one rifle for everything (except a .243 for yotes). Maybe this is not what you guys meant, but it kinda came across as condecending to a new LR hunter.

 

[happylilcuss]

Fifty you said it much more eloquently than I could even imagine.. Your post was exactly what I was trying to say in the begining.. JE I agree with your posts as well..

I by no means am trying to say that for the expierenced user that a large cal rifle is over kill. If I lived in Grizz country I would be packing a 300 or better for sure.


The Point I was trying to make is that; so many times people that dont know any better are advised "by someone who does know" that in order to take an elk ethicly and cleanly they have to use a larger mag cal. Then these same people read about the capability of the rond and then try to stretch it out beyond there ability because the caliber is capable..

For most of the folks on this site they are truely "Long range hunters" and are indeed in need of a big mag.. Like I said I am not picking a fight or trying to call anyone out.. I am in the process of saving up for a big magnum LR rifle. I have considered everthing from Kirby's 270am all the way to a 338 lapua, or 338am. I was just thinking out loud after reading a few threads where anything less than a super mag was not usefull.

 

[angus-5024]

Fair enough. I guess that I may have come across more offended than I was, which I was trying to avoid doing. I figured that you gents were being respecful, it just didnt sound like it to me. But then again, I didnt sound that nice either.

I know what you mean about guys that "know" because they talked to somebody that "knows". It seems like more than 75% of the population around where I live are so miss-informed just because they go off of what somebody else said.

P.S I once had a 7mm and loved it.

 

[3006savage]

My personal minimum for elk is a 260 Remington. The heavy 6.5 bullets penetrate well and are efficient in flight. I would actually prefer the 260 to the 25-06 on elk. 243 winchesters have got the job done also but I would really feel undergunned and with that round on elk.

 

[406pat]

Angus,

Didn't mean to come across as against any caliber and didn't mean to infer that carrying a big mag makes one come off as "macho" (that would be pretty hypocritical as I just built a .300 RUM for myself ) My big thing that irks me is people that give hunting and long range hunting in particular a bad name by taking shots that either they or their equipment aren't capable of. Here in Montana, I've seen quite a few animals wounded by people who take 3 shots a year to sight their rifle in and then think that if they can see it they can shoot it. These are the same people that will go out to have a couple beers and brag about how they slung lead into a heard that was way out there.

The public hears these people talking and assumes that everyone that takes a long range shot is just lobbing lead out there like these idiots. They don't understand the time that goes into preparing to make consistent hits range, time that the ethical hunter puts in throughout the year.

Sorry about the rant but this is one topic that drives me nuts. You wouldn't believe how many times I've had to defend myself as a long range hunter and shooter. As soon as I bring up the topic with people who don't know better, I'm automatically lumped in with the guys just out slinging lead. It usually takes a half hour to explain the practice time in the off-season, load development, range finding, ballistic calculations, range dope and shot selection that goes into making one shot on an animal.

Not to get too bunny hugger on everyone but I believe it really comes down to respect for the animal. As long as the animal is dispatched quickly consistently I don't care if you throw a rock. Rock busting and paper punching is the time to push your limits and go extreme. Hunting is when it's time to stick to what you've practiced and know you can do every time. That could be a bow at 15 yards or a .408 at 1200 depending on the persons equipment and skill but it still comes down to knowing that limit and being responsible with it.

Sorry I'll get off my soapbox now. Again I didn't mean to offend anyone based on their caliber of choice. I feel confident that members here are proficient with whatever weapon they use and know and practice their limits. This probably wasn't even a good place for this rant as everyone here knows and respects the level of practice and preperation required in our sport.

 

[happylilcuss]

+1

Exactly what I was thinking..

 

[canyonman1]

I believe the main reason a long range hunter would want a large caliber for elk is to eliminate as many enviromental factors as possible while delivering as heavy a blow as possible. Wind velocity and direction is a constant changeing factor in the places elk live. With a large caliber, high B.C. bullet, you get better retained energy, and more down range velocity which in turn helps that bullet to open and deliver that energy inside the animal, and hopefully exit, leaving a good blood trail. In long range hunting, it may take quite a bit of time to get to where the animal was when you hit it, and the more damage done, the easier it will be to recover that animal.
You can't kill what you don't hit. If someone can shoot long range succesfully with a smaller caliber, and can't take the recoil of a larger caliber, then choose the best bullet for the range and animal being hunted, and go huntin'.
My wife shoots a 270 win. and is deadly out to 900 yds... She can also shoot my 338 Edge better than I do. But she only shoots at game with her 270 cause that is what she is more confident with. And confidence and abillity with any caliber leads to meat in the freezer at any range.gun)

 

[338 bruce]

I use a large caliber because I hunt for cows a lot. Very seldom do you find a cow alone and with a 338 and larger bullet you can usually tell when an elk is hit so as not to accidentaly kill too many elk.

 

[AJ Peacock]

You guys can claim all the excuses you want for using a large rifle.

My wife says I hunt with a 338 Allen Mag because I'm compensating.

AJ

 

[Troutslayer]

My dad grew up shooting deer and elk with a 22mag. Not really because he believed that was the best option, but because it is what he had. His farthest shot on a bull elk was 400 yards. Most all his animals were killed with one shot.

Yeah, my dad used to take elk at over 500 with a 22 mag revolver with open sights.

 

[angus-5024]

If I was compensating for something, and my wife probably agree's, I would need a 30mm cannon.

 

[dewiseman]

This has been an interesting topic that has been covered many times. To me the obvious answer is the bigger the better but the most accurate shot is the top priority. I have pondered this question and asked many elk hunters here in Washington. The answer is allways "you gotta use a super mag" but when I asked why, I get a surprising answer. "If you don't drop them in there tracks someone else will have their tag on it before you get to it" No surprise to me is that most of these guy's are only seen at the rifle range when its time to check their zero the week before hunting season. I'm equally not surprised when they shoot three rounds at a twelve inch target and call that good if they all hit paper at two hundred yards. IMHO we are preaching to the chior here because we are talking to people that understand what the word accuracy means, and strive for it. I admire people that can shoot big magnums well. I have a 338 Win mag but while shooting it I began to develop a bad flinch so I went back to the 30-06 and had to work at eliminating my flinch with alot of 22lr practice. I'm getting a 280AI done now and also have a 6.5/270 that shoots extremley tight groups. These are the guns I am confident with, and will just modify my range accordingly. Best of luck to you all.

 

[happylilcuss]

Dewise I agree 100% were preaching to the choir here. But then again if you cant vent to the people you trust and know understand where your coming from then whats the point. The people that Im worried about (the ones that check there zero 3 days before the season on a 12" target and are happy with three hits on paper) we probably couldnt make to understand anyway. It seems that most of the guys here get as frustrated as me about this subject. Confidence, shot placement and caliber are all equally important.

I had a client come deer hunting one year with a wby 338-378. I made him check his zero upon arrival as I do all my clients. He brought out his rifle and 2 rounds. He shot once and missed a milk jug at 100yds. I asked what happened and he said he flinched. So he loaded his second round and missed again. He said "I must just be tired from the drive and cant shake this flinch. I said no big deal go ahead and let her go again.. He said well, If you wouldnt mind I would like you to give it a try.. Not thinking I went ahead and did. I hit the jug and was satisfied his rifle was capable. The next morning we found a nice 26" 4x4 buck accross a canyon. We snuck as close as we could (well as close as I was comfortable taking a man who couldnt get on his knees and crawl) I got him set up on my back pack prone with a nice dead set rest.) He argued with me for 5 min about the range saying it was much farther than 400 yds. (NE oregon has some wide open crp fields and thats what we were hunting.) I finally handed him the range finder for a second time to prove to him. He kept telling me he had to hold over the bucks back. I told him to hold just high on his shoulder and let it go.. He shot..... And I called the hit about 2 feet high.. His answer was wow thats right where I held. So he chambered another round. The buck was still standing broadside unaware what was going on. He let the second round go and hit the buck right through the hams. not hitting any bone the buck hobbled about 75 yds farther away. he took his third shot and missed... I told him to calm down and just relax. He told me he was out of ammo. I said no problem we have lots of time now just reload.. He said "No I mean I dont have any more ammo on me. Thats all I brought.." Now I am getting ****ed. I pulled my model 700 22-250 out of my back scabbard and dialed in the hold. I told him to hold dead tight and let it go..
Well now he argued with me that the "little pea shooter" couldnt kill the buck from this range.. He finally just told me to do it myself. I laid down held tight on the neck and dropped the buck with one shot.. (I understand its not legal and not right but I was ****ed and just wanted the hunt over with.) After the hunt he was appologetic however I told him to not bother trying to book again next year..

Well he booked with a neighbor guide the next year. Guess what he showed up with for a rifle.. No not a 22-250 but a 250-3000.. I guess one shot proved to him that confidence, shot placement make a huge difference.. He was a nice guy but had just been educated wrong.. Before he left we had a talk about trusting his guide (who lives and works in the area and knows whats going on) and the fact that being proficient with the gun you carry is very very important.. This story just cracks me up every time I think about it.. Now that its history anyway..
again sorry for the long post