seating depth changes

Robinhood493

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Aug 23, 2011
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OK guys, I'm trying different seating depth changes to fine tune my load. I am adjusting them about .010" at a time and I'm seeing big changes in group size. Is this normal? Sometimes .010" changes from 1.8" group to 1.1" group.
 
This is in the sticky in this section of the reloading forum.It works with Bergers and is good advice for other bullets too.

Len Backus
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Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from Berger VLD bullets in Your Rifle
Berger Bullets' Eric Stecker has just made available a tech bulletin in Word format.

You may download it here to save it one your own computer or read it online.



Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

Background

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifles. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).

For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won't shoot in their rifle.

Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.

Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.

Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.

After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying "this is the best my rifle has ever shot."

We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.


Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

Solution

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a "sweet spot". This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won't be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.

Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).

Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don't give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith
 
Yes. In my experience that is pretty much normal. .010 is huge. While I am not about to try and argue Eric's data as my experience is very limited in comparison and not nearly as technical. I just want to say that In every rifle I have done load development for I have found a sweet spot between kissing the lands and .025 jump. Often effecting groups by huge amounts by less than .010 adjustment. This has included conventional bullets as well as VLDs in several different rifles. Could be luck, but I doubt it. So far I have not found anything that groups worth a dam (in comparison) past about .060 off the lands. Herd about long jumps with good accuracy but have never sean it.
 
I was jumping from 3.650" to 4.1"(.450") with my 7mm rum and getting three 140 sierra's in .3 to .5" at 100 every time. My longest current jump is my 30 rum jumping the 180 hornady fb .200" or the 7stw doing the same .200" with a 140 sierra. The 30 rum is a .5 moa gun at 9 # without a brake, and the 7stw will do sub moa with the sierra 140 even though it likes the 140 accubond better. I only have one bullet resting on the lands, and most of my others are .010 to .100" jump.
I don't shy away from jumping a bullet, when you pull the trigger it will still find its way out of the case. If you have uniform brass that fits your chamber well, it should be a non issue to get groups.
 
Yes. In my experience that is pretty much normal. .010 is huge. . . . .So far I have not found anything that groups worth a dam (in comparison) past about .060 off the lands. Herd about long jumps with good accuracy but have never sean it.
When 7.62 NATO service rifles (M1's, M14's and commercial M1A"s) were popular in competion, the best built of them would shoot good lots of commercial .308 Win. match ammo inside 4 inches at 600 yards all day long. Even after 3500 rounds through their barrels increasing the "jump to leade" from about .020" when new to about .100" at that point. Wore out 4 such barrels doing that, but they all got replaced after about 4500 rounds.
 
Yes, and your opportunity to see that seating adjustments are not a 'fine tune'.
IMO, seating is prerequisite to fine tune(which is achieved with powder).
+1

I often play with two or three powders with a known good depth to see what shines both speed and accuracy wise.
 
Depends a moa or so on lighting and such and throw wind in to boot. If you have large swings from day to day you have other issues; stock warpage, etc..

Good points. So, I'll rephrase the question to the OP...

With consistent lighting, temp/pressure, wind, etc... if you leave the seating depth in one spot, how consistent/repeatable are your groups time after time?

As Mikecr stated, seating depth is an important factor for tuning.

The reason I pose the question about consistency is that people often get excited about one or two 3 shot groups and assume they'll be consistently tight. But, it's not always like that due to statistical sampling error.



-- richard
 
When 7.62 NATO service rifles (M1's, M14's and commercial M1A"s) were popular in competion, the best built of them would shoot good lots of commercial .308 Win. match ammo inside 4 inches at 600 yards all day long. Even after 3500 rounds through their barrels increasing the "jump to leade" from about .020" when new to about .100" at that point. Wore out 4 such barrels doing that, but they all got replaced after about 4500 rounds.

Don't get me wrong, I am well aware that it has bean done. Just saying.....I usually start .010 off the lands and find a sweet spot by the time I get to .025. In every one I have tried : moving it out past .060 has opened groups up. I have a new 308 barrel that will soon get moved to a long action because .020 jump gives GREAT groups but trying to load mag length gives me .120 jump and I can't keep it under an inch with any combination I have tried. I am so irritated about it that it will be the last short action I own. Glad it works for so many of you and the service rifles but "not so much" in mine.
 
Don't get me wrong, I am well aware that it has bean done. Just saying.....I usually start .010 off the lands and find a sweet spot by the time I get to .025. In every one I have tried : moving it out past .060 has opened groups up. I have a new 308 barrel that will soon get moved to a long action because .020 jump gives GREAT groups but trying to load mag length gives me .120 jump and I can't keep it under an inch with any combination I have tried. I am so irritated about it that it will be the last short action I own. Glad it works for so many of you and the service rifles but "not so much" in mine.
I'll give you a wooden nickel if you try a bullet that isn't jump sensitive like the 150 sierra in your 308. I'll bet 4064 or 4895(748 or rl15 if you are froggy), a br primer and the sierra 150 pro hunter will drill 1/3 moa at mag length. I've fixed problem guns working a good flat base bullet like the sierra into the mix.
Usually if a bore won't shoot a boat-tail unless jambed, it's on the big side of tolerances; I'd bet it wouldn't shoot the old style barnes X worth a hoot either. It has to do with the bullet obduration in the bore; the bt bullets have a harder time swelling to fit the bore properly than the fb bullets do. It's the same game I play getting moa out of gas-checked lead in my 375h@h. Gotta get it to obdurate but not tear apart. I DO have to jamb that one or it will skid on the rifling AND the powder will etch the back of the bullet(gotta get it far enough ahead the whole bullet is in the neck).
 
You could be right, but this is a suppressed 1in8 twist loading subsonic. I have no use for a 308 with a 150grain at full speed. 208,210,225 will all shoot real well at the lands or short jumped. I tried 168smk,168amax,175smk,190vld,200hibrid,208amax,210vld,225 hornady-hpbt. nothing gives good results long jumped but many give good results up close both full speed and subsonic. I could probably handicap the cartridge to make it work but it would then be pointless as I have other guns that are far better for anything a standard 308 could do........... I might have to try it just to get my wooden nickel...... I should probably start explaining to people when ever I comment that I do not want to take the time to screw around with less than efficient loadings "because I am to busy trying to make sumthin outa nothin". The super duper something or rather has already bean designed and it is just waiting to be refined. Specialty tools for specialty jobs can't be bought "off the shelf".
 
Usually if a bore won't shoot a boat-tail unless jambed, it's on the big side of tolerances; I'd bet it wouldn't shoot the old style barnes X worth a hoot either. It has to do with the bullet obduration in the bore; the bt bullets have a harder time swelling to fit the bore properly than the fb bullets do.
That's opposite from what's popular with folks shooting long range matches. They seat bullets out far enough to engage the rifling for best accuracy in barrels with groove diameters much smaller than what the bullet is. I've got best accuracy with all bullets jambed into the lands; even .3092" diameter 30 caliber ones into .3075" groove diameter barrels. That barrel's almost 2 thousandths smaller than those bullets.

All 30 caliber jacketed bullets starting into a barrel have the same force pushing them in for a given chamber pressure. Their diameter's all the same once they're into the rifling. With the same pressure behind one, that means the force pushing them in's the same. Doesn't matter what the shape of their hind end is.
 
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