Rule of Thumb for Shooting Down Hill

[Barrelnut]

Son with one about 6 years ago 503 Y if I recall,my stick.

Beautiful buck. Congratulations. Bet your guy's trophy room is pretty amazing. Or side of the barn, wherever you put them.

 

[greenejc]

Beautiful buck. Congratulations. Bet your guy's trophy room is pretty amazing. Or side of the barn, wherever you put them.

If they've got more than one of those, it would have to be.

 

[Shane Lindsey]

Have any of you taken a physics class? In actuality, in normal hunting ranges and slopes, the effect of up/down hill is pretty minimal. Overall range has a much larger effect; not to mention wind, etc.

Just high school and they weren't talking ballistics there.

As with some of these other fellas, just military. Before everyone had a laser, kestrel, ACI, GPS, and whatever other digital device now available. Just a chevron tied to protractor on a string. Complete with a flight crew checklist with data tables with cosine charts...

Technology is great, until it isn't.

 

[sp6x6]

greenejc,I ran a 340 wby since I was 20.Back in the day before lazer I shot bulls at 7-800 yards with my Sheppard scope 3-10.With 225 partitions,and yes we have more than one buck like that.. My 338 NM @ 400

 

[greenejc]

Just high school and they weren't talking ballistics there.

As with some of these other fellas, just military. Before everyone had a laser, kestrel, ACI, GPS, and whatever other digital device now available. Just a chevron tied to protractor on a string. Complete with a flight crew checklist with data tables with cosine charts...

Technology is great, until it isn't.

Exactly. It works until it doesn't and then if you don't know how to do without, you're in the deep stuff.

 

[greenejc]

greenejc,I ran a 340 wby since I was 20.Back in the day before lazer I shot bulls at 7-800 yards with my Sheppard scope 3-10.With 225 partitions,and yes we have more than one buck like that.. My 338 NM @ 400

That's a great group. They're testing the Norma 338 in a new machinegun, now. Its going to be a real bear on thin skinned vehicles and probably light armored too. I wouldn't be surprised if they wrap a sniper rifle around it, too. I get a group like that from one of my 300 Win Mags at 300 yards.

 

[meatyrem]

You gotta know the horizontal distance not the actual distance. It could be 500yds out but at the angle only like 400yds horizontal
Also my rangefinder will give me the angle and the "corrected" yardage along with actual yardage.

 

[LRNut]

You're arguing too hard and using to many words to make people understand that you need to aim low.

To be fair, it's a physics question. Which is why I posted a physics equation on the first page. Lastly it depends on the type of precision you need.

Regular rifleman's rule is probably fine for most people here. It's already been mentioned that you will KNOW you need to make a correction to your slope dope when you are a **nt hair away from rolling head over heels in your shooting position and how rare it is to be in that position specifically at ELR ranges.

Improved Rifeman will work for most other people…including most non ELR competitors…in all other cases, your kestrel ab or similar software will do the trick.

I just got back from a hunt so I am only now seeing this thread again. I might be arguing too hard in your opinion, but the example I laid out is absolutely true: if you hold for the horizontal distance on a long shot and a steep angle, and you will miss - this is the reason for the improved rifleman's rule in the first place (and I think you are the only one who even brought it up). Simply saying you need to aim low isn't good enough.

The point I am making, obviously not understood by the majority of the readers of this thread, is that the drop of a bullet is not purely a function of the true horizontal distance. To your point, and the one I was making from the beginning, is to use something that takes this into consideration. I prefer a rangefinder that does it one step.

 

[Radman]

If anyone wants to nerd out on this topic a bit, Joseph von Benedikt had Aaron Davidson on his podcast (Backcountry Hunting) talking about this same topic last week

"Nerd-out"....one of my new favorite phrases!

 

[Mike Matteson]

Yet the range finders have changed the rule in learning to shoot. It doesn't make any different if it's uphill or downhill it's all the same. Vertical angel on where that bullet is going to land or hit. That's part of becoming an accomplish shooter. You got to know what your bullet is doing at any given range, and up or down hill. It's take time, but with new equipment cut down the guessing and bigoli shooting.

 

[73driver]

Ok so while the 11B/### etc High Speed Low Drag operators compare dick size. KISS, a LRF that corrects for angle is your simple friend and the batteries hardly ever run low. A spare CR123 lithium battery weighs .6 OZ's, big whoop. This year I put couple hundred shots down range verifying drops and range finder. My LRF turned out to be about 25 yards off so got a new one. What elevation you are at is an approximation, "Density Altitude" is more precise and it is calculted using Temperature, Barometric pressure (not corrected Baro like they use in aviation). Humidity also counts but not as much as the other two factors. Verify your MV, ballistic solver, LRF and practice at different ranges and shooting positions. Easiest to make a dope card up at location day before the hunt with your phones ballistic app using local temp, baro data from a kestrel device. Out in the field its 1) range 2) reference drop card 3) dial 4) get on rifle using practiced good form-squeeze-follow through. Have fun out there and for all the High Speed Low Drag guys, thanks for putting it on the line.

 

[BrentM]

Ok so while the 11B/### etc High Speed Low Drag operators compare dick size. KISS, a LRF that corrects for angle is your simple friend and the batteries hardly ever run low. A spare CR123 lithium battery weighs .6 OZ's, big whoop. This year I put couple hundred shots down range verifying drops and range finder. My LRF turned out to be about 25 yards off so got a new one. What elevation you are at is an approximation, "Density Altitude" is more precise and it is calculted using Temperature, Barometric pressure (not corrected Baro like they use in aviation). Humidity also counts but not as much as the other two factors. Verify your MV, ballistic solver, LRF and practice at different ranges and shooting positions. Easiest to make a dope card up at location day before the hunt with your phones ballistic app using local temp, baro data from a kestrel device. Out in the field its 1) range 2) reference drop card 3) dial 4) get on rifle using practiced good form-squeeze-follow through. Have fun out there and for all the High Speed Low Drag guys, thanks for putting it on the line.

Hey I was 11 and 12b..... I am low speed high drag now tho.

I think the premise for the OP is simply trying to understand angle shots and the science behind it. While standard rifleman's rule, los vs angle compensation, does work within certain accuracy standards, the improved version will be more precise but how much is dependent on angle and distance etc. Can be a lot or a little. I've come to the conclusion that we LRH guys need to be more precise than any one. It's just my personal opinion as I value animals and quick deaths more than I value a score off a steel plate. I see more people scratching their heads over angle comp, wind, and areo dynamic jump, then other subjects with an exception that I'll clarify later. Technology has helped us with accurate LRF's, LRF's with ballistic apps, and of course phone apps that we can study and run scenarios off of. I think all the tech is bad@ss and I geek out over it. However, I am also the guy who wants to know more of the why behind it all not just the result spit out from a computer. In the advanced long range courses this is the stuff we dig deeper into. The why, what it looks like via illustration, and then the field application.

Here is my take on the OP's potential reason for a miss tho. At 500,the elevation for 10 degrees is only 1 to 1.5" or .25 moa. He mentioned high winds but gave no specifics..... making some assumptions here....... so If wind was 20 mph he needed to correct about .5 down. At this point he was needing .75 moa correction to hit his aim point. Add one more thing, the plot twist, what was his shooting position? Many people do not practice positional shooting so his rifle alignment may have been off which can easily throw .25-.5 error in to the impact point. Again, huge assumptions and we know what assuming gets ya.

 

[73driver]

Hey I was 11 and 12b..... I am low speed high drag now tho.

I think the premise for the OP is simply trying to understand angle shots and the science behind it. While standard rifleman's rule, los vs angle compensation, does work within certain accuracy standards, the improved version will be more precise but how much is dependent on angle and distance etc. Can be a lot or a little. I've come to the conclusion that we LRH guys need to be more precise than any one. It's just my personal opinion as I value animals and quick deaths more than I value a score off a steel plate. I see more people scratching their heads over angle comp, wind, and areo dynamic jump, then other subjects with an exception that I'll clarify later. Technology has helped us with accurate LRF's, LRF's with ballistic apps, and of course phone apps that we can study and run scenarios off of. I think all the tech is bad@ss and I geek out over it. However, I am also the guy who wants to know more of the why behind it all not just the result spit out from a computer. In the advanced long range courses this is the stuff we dig deeper into. The why, what it looks like via illustration, and then the field application.

Here is my take on the OP's potential reason for a miss tho. At 500,the elevation for 10 degrees is only 1 to 1.5" or .25 moa. He mentioned high winds but gave no specifics..... making some assumptions here....... so If wind was 20 mph he needed to correct about .5 down. At this point he was needing .75 moa correction to hit his aim point. Add one more thing, the plot twist, what was his shooting position? Many people do not practice positional shooting so his rifle alignment may have been off which can easily throw .25-.5 error in to the impact point. Again, huge assumptions and we know what assuming gets ya.

Agreed, understanding the physics behind the calculations is immensely helpful. Many early posts gave great explanations and the Video posted in post #98 from the NSSF by Ryan Cleckner pretty well covered it in the first six minutes. After the video post there were some inaccurate statements and verbose/not useful posts. You added wind to the mix and that is the wild card. During my shooting practice wind as light as 3 mph was pushing my bullet 5 inches off at 540 yards. Add in terrain features that can swirl the wind or generate up drafts then you get conditions hard to account for generating unexpected outcomes.

 

[BrentM]

Agreed, understanding the physics behind the calculations is immensely helpful. Many early posts gave great explanations and the Video posted in post #98 from the NSSF by Ryan Cleckner pretty well covered it in the first six minutes. After the video post there were some inaccurate statements and verbose/not useful posts. You added wind to the mix and that is the wild card. During my shooting practice wind as light as 3 mph was pushing my bullet 5 inches off at 540 yards. Add in terrain features that can swirl the wind or generate up drafts then you get conditions hard to account for generating unexpected outcomes.

Well useless posts is part of the game on any forum. I help manage a page on FB with 100K plus members. It's a daily baby sitting gig. Long range shooting is full of myths and theories and opinions. Heck I have plenty of my own but I do my best to back it up with science. There is a lot of science in ballistics and it can be overwhelming and complicated and we don't always understand it correctly. Add in things we can't see well, like air, and boom, confusion. All of my practice is in mountain terrain where air is always moving and I shoot in windy conditions to keep the ego in check.