Forster bench rest dies do the same thing just no micrometer and a lot cheaper
Rookie neck tension question
- Thread starter huntoregon
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MarkInPA
Well-Known Member
If you are not going to turn necks, I think you should be using an expander of some sort. Either the expander ball in the sizing die or else with a mandrel like you were talking about but, I would not skip this step. Most of the people not using a final neck expander are turning their necks for uniformity.
There are lots of good sizing dies on the market and at different price points too. I think you should give the Forster full length sizing dies a try. I think they are a step above the more common RCBS, Hornady, etc. They set there sizing ball up higher in the sizing die which is supposed to lesson run-out.
MarkInPA
Well-Known Member
Very true. No argument from me except, the one I just purchased was $143.99 retail. That's only a $20.24 difference. Isn't the micrometer worth that much?
jump on you tube there's some great videos on there that will make you a pro in no time.
Nicoli7153
Well-Known Member
Think using a mandrel is the best way to go for most applications, unless you are doing long range precision shooting
tomcat818
Well-Known Member
Yep agree with CST on understanding what you need based on your goals\expectations. I initially bought a standard two die set for 300WM (Full length and seater no mic) and later realized this would be overworking my brass and usually end up creating a couple of foulers finding the right seating dept. This lead me to purchase the 3 set Redding die w/ full length die, neck bushing only, and seater w/ micrometer. The standard full length die would take the neck tension to .007" then the expander ball opened to .0035" tension . With the three die set I use a .334 bushing (neck only die) then a .3065" mandrel for .0015 neck tension. I see two advantages to this method lower SD's and less brass work in the neck which is susceptible to cracking. I'm planning on taking this rifle out to 1K is why I'm so concerned about SD and ES. If your intentions are to hunt at typical hunting ranges and not a lot of recreational or competitive shooting I would suggest a full length die and micro seater.
huntoregon
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- Feb 23, 2014
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Thanks for all the help guys. I'm looking into either Forster or Redding sizing and seating dies. Probably with the micrometer. Also looking at the 21st Century expander mandrel and body. Now to figure out what size mandrel to start with.
huntoregon
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- Feb 23, 2014
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I do plan on hunting at longer ranges if the opportunity presents itself. I am comfortable out to 700 yards now. With more practice and confidence maybe more.
I would start with a .2825 mandrel and a handful of bushings from .309-.313 and see what combo your gun likes.
Last edited:
Huntoregon:
You are heading down a rabbit hole. Dealing with so called "neck tension" can be three things; waste of time, can improve consistency (notice I didn't say accuracy), it can get expensive and frustrating.
All the options posted above are great and I would like to expand on them a bit with some questions. Then share my thoughts and process I've learned after 50+ years loading.
First, what rifle do you have, is it a factory chamber? What brass are you using? And prob the most important question is do you anneal?
Trying to adjust neck tension (inside neck diameter) is a moot point if you don't know the neck ID of your chamber, not using quality brass, and not annealing.
If you are not using quality brass typically neck wall thickness is not consistent, you will never get consistent neck tension from one case to the next.
Brass hardens with each firing, if you don't anneal, a case that has been fired 3 times will have less spring back than a case that has been fired 6 times. I have never figured out a way to keep a lot of brass separated by the number of firings. When you size those to cases with the same bushing or expand with a mandrel, the net result will be different IDs with each case do to the spring back of the brass.
Let's start with bushing dies. A bushing die allows you to change the neck bushing to different sizes to adjust the neck diameter to desired size. I keep on my bench Redding cases for each caliber with different size bushings. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012586433?pid=665599
Each brand of brass has different neck thicknesses, so a bushing you use with Lapua Brass will not be the same one needed for Peterson brass to get the same inside neck diameter.
Mandrel die. Unless you buy multiply precision mandrels, you still are not "adjusting" the so called neck tension. All you are doing is sizing the neck with the FL or neck Die without the expander ball, then expanding it back out with the mandrel. Same process, just now doing it in two steps.
Using a quality bushing die with the correct size bushing, in conjunction with a expanding mandrel about the only thing you gain is less work hardening of the brass unless you get lucky and find the right combo.
The other option is a Collet type die like Lee makes. This is a great option. I personally don't use them, but know plenty that do with great results. For a factory hunting rifle and occasional LR target work, that is prob all you will ever need.
I follow this guy, he really dives into neck tension in the following video, watch it, he is a wealth of knowledge for LR shooting.
The following is how I load and deal with neck tension. All this is just the way I do it, not saying it is the right way, just how I do it.
Cases are always cleaned, then annealed without exception every firing. Then I choose a bushing for my Redding or Custom die that is between .003" to .005" smaller than desired outside diameter of finished round. Then using a mandrel, the necks are opened back up .002 to .003". The the goal is to get a .002" to .003" grip on the bullet.
Once you have worked up a load, you can go back and change "tension" with different size mandrels. In a hunting rifle, you will prob never see the difference. But I have seen changing the ID of a neck by .001" will change the way a match rifle will shoot. What works for one cartridge rifle combo may not work on the next. I have two different F Class rifles chambered in 6mmDasher, both have the same barrels, chambered by the same smith at the same time with the same reamer, they like different neck tensions. Go figure.
With all that is said above and by others, if you are not using top notch components, equipment, with good shooting techniques, you will never see the benefit.
JMHO
Randy
PM sent
You are heading down a rabbit hole. Dealing with so called "neck tension" can be three things; waste of time, can improve consistency (notice I didn't say accuracy), it can get expensive and frustrating.
All the options posted above are great and I would like to expand on them a bit with some questions. Then share my thoughts and process I've learned after 50+ years loading.
First, what rifle do you have, is it a factory chamber? What brass are you using? And prob the most important question is do you anneal?
Trying to adjust neck tension (inside neck diameter) is a moot point if you don't know the neck ID of your chamber, not using quality brass, and not annealing.
If you are not using quality brass typically neck wall thickness is not consistent, you will never get consistent neck tension from one case to the next.
Brass hardens with each firing, if you don't anneal, a case that has been fired 3 times will have less spring back than a case that has been fired 6 times. I have never figured out a way to keep a lot of brass separated by the number of firings. When you size those to cases with the same bushing or expand with a mandrel, the net result will be different IDs with each case do to the spring back of the brass.
Let's start with bushing dies. A bushing die allows you to change the neck bushing to different sizes to adjust the neck diameter to desired size. I keep on my bench Redding cases for each caliber with different size bushings. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012586433?pid=665599
Each brand of brass has different neck thicknesses, so a bushing you use with Lapua Brass will not be the same one needed for Peterson brass to get the same inside neck diameter.
Mandrel die. Unless you buy multiply precision mandrels, you still are not "adjusting" the so called neck tension. All you are doing is sizing the neck with the FL or neck Die without the expander ball, then expanding it back out with the mandrel. Same process, just now doing it in two steps.
Using a quality bushing die with the correct size bushing, in conjunction with a expanding mandrel about the only thing you gain is less work hardening of the brass unless you get lucky and find the right combo.
The other option is a Collet type die like Lee makes. This is a great option. I personally don't use them, but know plenty that do with great results. For a factory hunting rifle and occasional LR target work, that is prob all you will ever need.
I follow this guy, he really dives into neck tension in the following video, watch it, he is a wealth of knowledge for LR shooting.
The following is how I load and deal with neck tension. All this is just the way I do it, not saying it is the right way, just how I do it.
Cases are always cleaned, then annealed without exception every firing. Then I choose a bushing for my Redding or Custom die that is between .003" to .005" smaller than desired outside diameter of finished round. Then using a mandrel, the necks are opened back up .002 to .003". The the goal is to get a .002" to .003" grip on the bullet.
Once you have worked up a load, you can go back and change "tension" with different size mandrels. In a hunting rifle, you will prob never see the difference. But I have seen changing the ID of a neck by .001" will change the way a match rifle will shoot. What works for one cartridge rifle combo may not work on the next. I have two different F Class rifles chambered in 6mmDasher, both have the same barrels, chambered by the same smith at the same time with the same reamer, they like different neck tensions. Go figure.
With all that is said above and by others, if you are not using top notch components, equipment, with good shooting techniques, you will never see the benefit.
JMHO
Randy
PM sent
MarkInPA
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing, Randy.
lyle2231
Well-Known Member
Deputy819
Well-Known Member
No. What they do is increase the amount of "interference" between the bullet and the case mouth/neck. Using a mandrel afterwards alters that "interference" slightly and helps with neck 'straightness'…if you will. You'd have to FIRST know the state of hardness of your brass in order to decipher the 'tension' thereof.
Revolting Peasant
Well-Known Member
I have started down this rabbit hole myself. I am currently bouncing around between a combination of the following.
-Annealing
-Lee collet die
-Lee factory crimp die adjusted per ButterBean.
-Porter's Precision Products in Texas makes a mandrel die that uses chamfered pin gauges as mandrels. These are available in a multitude of sizes to allow exact size as needed, affordably. Very accurate and well made. I live fairly close to him so I save on shipping by stopping in and get to pick his brain a bit. Great guy and an awesome machinist.
I bought some bushing dies but haven't used them yet. I've been playing around a bunch with .223 and a variety of brass. I think the bushing dies will come into play when I start loading premium brass like the Alpha brass I bought for the 6.5
-Annealing
-Lee collet die
-Lee factory crimp die adjusted per ButterBean.
-Porter's Precision Products in Texas makes a mandrel die that uses chamfered pin gauges as mandrels. These are available in a multitude of sizes to allow exact size as needed, affordably. Very accurate and well made. I live fairly close to him so I save on shipping by stopping in and get to pick his brain a bit. Great guy and an awesome machinist.
I bought some bushing dies but haven't used them yet. I've been playing around a bunch with .223 and a variety of brass. I think the bushing dies will come into play when I start loading premium brass like the Alpha brass I bought for the 6.5
