Remington under fire
- Thread starter winmagman
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
rscott5028
Well-Known Member
The CNBC report was as biased to the left as this forum is to the right.
"Safety" is a matter of degree. No firearm is 100% safe.
The question is something like whether or not Remington beleived the mechanism was/is safe to an acceptable degree.
People say the most irresponsible things in memos/email/forums. So, no doubt you could look back 40 years and find a trail. (perhaps even a smoking gun)
How many rifle reviews have been done on Remington, Winchester, etc... citing them for safety concerns? The market place certainly felt that the price/performance was there.
I'm sure they are guilty of something. But, killing people due to this supposed design flaw probably isn't one of them.
Unfortunately, nobody's opinion matters here. This will be decided in court. And, it will be reflected in mounting legislation.
Trigger the vote.
"Safety" is a matter of degree. No firearm is 100% safe.
The question is something like whether or not Remington beleived the mechanism was/is safe to an acceptable degree.
People say the most irresponsible things in memos/email/forums. So, no doubt you could look back 40 years and find a trail. (perhaps even a smoking gun)
How many rifle reviews have been done on Remington, Winchester, etc... citing them for safety concerns? The market place certainly felt that the price/performance was there.
I'm sure they are guilty of something. But, killing people due to this supposed design flaw probably isn't one of them.
Unfortunately, nobody's opinion matters here. This will be decided in court. And, it will be reflected in mounting legislation.
Trigger the vote.
timbradley
New Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2010
- Messages
- 3
I expect my gun not to fire unless I pull the trigger. Now if I sold you a gun that I made and it went off because you leaned it up against a tree without the trigger being pulled and a sharp branch fell down and a friend or family member was killed by this branch would you not want some kind of revenge on me because I knew and did not warn you. Certainly after you find out that I had done this before to other people for many years. Lets say my rifle fired because I layed it down and it shot out my tire on my car, I would be very mad, I would want to break someone's leg with this killing machine. Some hard heads might say darn, glad it hit my tire otherwise it could have killed someone. It's very easy to be logical and talk about degree's of safety and markets ect., ect., but on the other hand this kind of crap should make anyone angry. That somewhere down the road, a friend or family member could be killed by a rifle that someone thought was pointed in a safe direction because it just goes off. And Remington would rather take on one victim at a time than issue a recall just to save some money.
rscott5028
Well-Known Member
If you beleive your 700 isn't safe, then you should send it back to Remington or destroy it. You can't exactly sell it or you're as guilty as you may beleive them to be.
On the other hand, I'd have to look at a lot of specific cases before drawing an overall conclusion. There are no doubt incidents where someone was careless; or misadjusted their trigger; or perhaps the tolerances stacked up and it was shipped faulty from the factory. There might even be an inherent design flaw in the trigger/safety itself and a massive 40 year cover up.
I'd just have to look at the individual situations one by one if it was up to me (which it is not).
I do beleive that my 700 is as safe as a bolt rifle should be. I've beat it on the floor; slammed the bolt shut; yanked the trigger while fiddling with the safety; etc. But, I always assume it could discharge once the bolt closes on a loaded round.
I treat all of my rifles with that same respect.
If Remington is guilty, they should pony up. But, we shouldn't all suffer because a bunch of folks see an opportunity to fabricate lawsuits if that's where this is going.
On the other hand, I'd have to look at a lot of specific cases before drawing an overall conclusion. There are no doubt incidents where someone was careless; or misadjusted their trigger; or perhaps the tolerances stacked up and it was shipped faulty from the factory. There might even be an inherent design flaw in the trigger/safety itself and a massive 40 year cover up.
I'd just have to look at the individual situations one by one if it was up to me (which it is not).
I do beleive that my 700 is as safe as a bolt rifle should be. I've beat it on the floor; slammed the bolt shut; yanked the trigger while fiddling with the safety; etc. But, I always assume it could discharge once the bolt closes on a loaded round.
I treat all of my rifles with that same respect.
If Remington is guilty, they should pony up. But, we shouldn't all suffer because a bunch of folks see an opportunity to fabricate lawsuits if that's where this is going.
ishootkittens
Well-Known Member
wow.. this truly is crazy! I just got finished watching the CNBC special and one of the fella's just locked the bolt and the **** gun went off! That is crazy! It isnt the first time this has happend either. I mean guns are dangerous. If they werent dangerous we would hunt with them, but i like my guns because they only go off when the trigger is pulled! 
and I want to comment on whoever posted the "what if it hit a rock" comment. That could happen to anyone, if your scared that is going to happen, then maybe its God's way of saying its your time to go, because if you are a knowledgable shooter and know NEVER to point a gun at anything you dont intend on killing, you wouldnt be aiming at that rock to begin with.. You can throw the "what if" factor in there all day. "What if the world ended tomorow?"... well remington wouldn't have to worry about the rain of fire that is coming down on their *** because of this!
Bottom line (not the line below), remington firearms (at least those particular rifles) are dangerous, but the bullet didnt ricochet or deflect in the cases that were on CNBC... they were pointed directly at the victim...regardless of the intent.
_____________________________________________________________
and I want to comment on whoever posted the "what if it hit a rock" comment. That could happen to anyone, if your scared that is going to happen, then maybe its God's way of saying its your time to go, because if you are a knowledgable shooter and know NEVER to point a gun at anything you dont intend on killing, you wouldnt be aiming at that rock to begin with.
. You can throw the "what if" factor in there all day. "What if the world ended tomorow?"... well remington wouldn't have to worry about the rain of fire that is coming down on their *** because of this!Bottom line (not the line below), remington firearms (at least those particular rifles) are dangerous, but the bullet didnt ricochet or deflect in the cases that were on CNBC... they were pointed directly at the victim...regardless of the intent.
_____________________________________________________________
rscott5028
Well-Known Member
He's right about the rock or branch or whatever. I would certainly want revenge even though God probably played a hand in it.
I might sue Remington because they have deep pockets. But, you'd better sleep with one eye open if you were the one that chambered the shell that killed one of my loved ones.
Get all of your rifles checked out properly by a professional; and then test them yourself; and then assume they still might go off when you chamber a round.
I had a Canjar trigger installed in a Mark V by a "gunsmith". It went off by itself while I was at the range. Fortunately, the muzzle was pointed at the target when I chambered the round. That's when I decided to start checking all of my rifles and to never trust them since dirt, oil, powder, temperature, vibrations, or whatever could potentially create a hazard.
I might sue Remington because they have deep pockets. But, you'd better sleep with one eye open if you were the one that chambered the shell that killed one of my loved ones.
Get all of your rifles checked out properly by a professional; and then test them yourself; and then assume they still might go off when you chamber a round.
I had a Canjar trigger installed in a Mark V by a "gunsmith". It went off by itself while I was at the range. Fortunately, the muzzle was pointed at the target when I chambered the round. That's when I decided to start checking all of my rifles and to never trust them since dirt, oil, powder, temperature, vibrations, or whatever could potentially create a hazard.
While everyone is on the band wagon to sue Remington they might as well sue all the other gun company's also. Wake up people. There have been guns going off ever since the first one was designed. Mostly because their not idiot proof. Whether it is due to someone messing with it or negligence or wear or design flaws they can and do go off. Everything from the old Win 97's with soft sears on the hammer to Ithaca 37's that had a steel pin in the trigger that would bend when the slide would slam back too hard and when the breach was closed again it would fire the gun. Nothing is idiot proof or without flaws. There is only one safe method and that is to not have a round in the chamber and if you do then keep it pointed away from everything you do not wish to shoot. Blaming Remington, Winchester, Ithaca or other gun companies is irresponsible and blaming someone else for our own failings.
Which Winchester shotgun was it that you used to push down on the barrel to cock the action. This was done by putting the butt on the ground and pushing the barrel down. Sometimes when it cocked it didn't fully engage and when you let the barrel go back up the sear let loose and the gun went off. Lots of these were pointed directly at the shooters head when this happened. Left a few gun owners DRT.
What it all gets down to is this. Learn gun safety, if you practice it ALL the time, you will never have a problem.
Which Winchester shotgun was it that you used to push down on the barrel to cock the action. This was done by putting the butt on the ground and pushing the barrel down. Sometimes when it cocked it didn't fully engage and when you let the barrel go back up the sear let loose and the gun went off. Lots of these were pointed directly at the shooters head when this happened. Left a few gun owners DRT.
What it all gets down to is this. Learn gun safety, if you practice it ALL the time, you will never have a problem.
Kevin Thomas
Well-Known Member
"This will be decided in court. And, it will be reflected in mounting legislation. " rscott5028
I agree completely, but I'd take that one step further. It'll also be reflected in future complaints about lousy factory triggers that won't break at anything less than 15 lbs, prices doubling on new firearms to cover the lawyers cut of future lawsuits, and makers like Arnold Jewell, Timney and Giesslle calling it quits because it isn't worth the time, money or effort needed to protect yourself from some idiot with poor gun handling skills.
Guns are dangerous. Wouldn't be much use if they weren't. We accept certain inherent dangers when we use, handle or put ourselves in the proximity of them. Personally, it wouldn't bother me if safetys were eliminated on most guns because I see them used as excuses for poor gun handling skills far too often. Both triggers and safetys are mechanical, which means they have the ability to fail if they're improperly assembled, poorly maintained or incorrectly adjusted. That's why we preach muzzle awareness and hammer people so hard on firearms safety practices. I've had issues with Remington triggers, but never with new rifles in proper order that hadn't been monkeyed with. The CNBC piece was blatantly biased against guns and gun ownership (gee, who'd 'a thunk it!), and hardly what I'd regard as much of a credible source. Just remember who your diving into bed with if you want to side with their take on this.
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
I agree completely, but I'd take that one step further. It'll also be reflected in future complaints about lousy factory triggers that won't break at anything less than 15 lbs, prices doubling on new firearms to cover the lawyers cut of future lawsuits, and makers like Arnold Jewell, Timney and Giesslle calling it quits because it isn't worth the time, money or effort needed to protect yourself from some idiot with poor gun handling skills.
Guns are dangerous. Wouldn't be much use if they weren't. We accept certain inherent dangers when we use, handle or put ourselves in the proximity of them. Personally, it wouldn't bother me if safetys were eliminated on most guns because I see them used as excuses for poor gun handling skills far too often. Both triggers and safetys are mechanical, which means they have the ability to fail if they're improperly assembled, poorly maintained or incorrectly adjusted. That's why we preach muzzle awareness and hammer people so hard on firearms safety practices. I've had issues with Remington triggers, but never with new rifles in proper order that hadn't been monkeyed with. The CNBC piece was blatantly biased against guns and gun ownership (gee, who'd 'a thunk it!), and hardly what I'd regard as much of a credible source. Just remember who your diving into bed with if you want to side with their take on this.
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA
Last edited:
ebd10
Well-Known Member
Anyone that has a Remington 700 that they are afraid to shoot, please PM me. I will happily alleviate your fears by taking posession of your dangerous rifle. Heck, I'll even give you $100 a piece for them.
This should not be a religious discussion with people lined up as pro-gun or anti-gun, pro-Remington or anti-Remington. This discussion should be about whether Remington did something seriously wrong that directly lead to injuries & deaths.
Allegations are that a tiny percentage of Model 700 triggers that haven't been improperly adjusted, and aren't dirty or gummed up, fail without warning, and that this has happened since the model was introduced with Remington hiding this fact from the public. I don't know if any of these allegations are true, but I know these are the allegations.
My first career was as a manufacturing engineer. We know manufacturing parts, either by hand or on automated equipment, means there will be variability in the parts. They will not all be identical. In fact, the "normal curve" used in statistics was developed to show the expected variability of manufacturing processes. Based on this we know, with absolute certainty, that there will be variability in Remington trigger parts and in the performance of Remington triggers. Remington's job was to design a trigger that could function properly in spite of these manufacturing variations AND to do their best to minimize the variations so their products would work as expected. Remington also had a duty (as does every manufacturer) to divulge risks of their products so consumers can take reasonable protections to avoid injuries.
It appears (based on reports now coming out) that since the Model 700 was introduced, a VERY small percentage of triggers were unsafe as produced, and that the design made it fairly likely that an improperly adjusted or maintained trigger might be unsafe. It also appears Remington did their best to hide the trigger failures from the gun-buying public.
There is no excuse for a trigger with a negative sear angle to get out of the factory mounted on a rifle. If that happened, EVEN ONCE, that is a failure of Remington's quality control. A negative sear angle was documented by a supporter of Remington in this thread. Apparently Remington screwed up the design and/or the manufacturing of these rifles if Remington sold a rifle with a negative sear angle.
Then there is the question of "information". The biggest liability of tobacco companies, lead smelters, and asbestos manufacturers came not from making an unsafe product, but from lying about the safety of their product, which encouraged people to use these things & lead to many injuries & deaths after the point the companies knew with reasonable certainty that there were safety problems with their products. This is where it appears Remington is in deep do-do if allegations are true. Remington, from all reports I've seen, paid off plaintiffs suing over damages to buy their silence, which kept others from knowing of potential problems with the Model 700 trigger. If that is proven, (a big if) then it's reasonable for a jury to award damages sufficient to keep any future company from behaving that way (called punitive damages). With a product like the Model 700, that was the core of Remington's profits for decades, punitive damages could be as high as all profits off the Model 700 since Remington knew there was a problem they should have fixed. If that happens, Remington will be bankrupt.
Is it bad that a company should be sued if they do something wrong that injures people? Not if you believe in FREEDOM. Our founding fathers had several choices in how to set up a country. They could have used the authoritarian model (like most countries at that time & throughout history) where subjects did exactly as the government told them under threat of death, or, they could give people freedom to do most things as they saw fit, knowing only that if they harmed anyone when doing something wrong that they would be required to pay damages. They chose to give people freedoms, and the responsibility of paying for any wrongs they committed. That's why this country has more lawyers per-capita than any other country. That was the plan. The other option is fascist rule where the government tells you exactly what to do. I prefer the freedoms even if it means the responsibility of paying for my damages.
So, If Remington was so arrogant that they thought they could simply buy victim's silence for decades without fixing product defects (as is alleged), I support those suing them. If it turns out Remington did nothing substantially wrong, I have faith a jury of Americans will find for Remington as they reach a verdict based on the facts in evidence before them..
I will say that I am in favor of replacing Remington triggers until we know how to identify Remington triggers likely to fail. Timney makes a great trigger, as does Jewell, and a few other companies.
I like Remington products. I've had a few, have some now, & would like a few more. I never liked the Remington Model 700 factory trigger & since I can now afford quality aftermarket triggers, I will be replacing the triggers in Remington rifles we have. My, and my family's safety is worth more than the price of some after-market triggers. This discussion should not be about liking Remington products, it should be about whether Remington did some people wrong & these people suffered damages that Remington should pay.
Allegations are that a tiny percentage of Model 700 triggers that haven't been improperly adjusted, and aren't dirty or gummed up, fail without warning, and that this has happened since the model was introduced with Remington hiding this fact from the public. I don't know if any of these allegations are true, but I know these are the allegations.
My first career was as a manufacturing engineer. We know manufacturing parts, either by hand or on automated equipment, means there will be variability in the parts. They will not all be identical. In fact, the "normal curve" used in statistics was developed to show the expected variability of manufacturing processes. Based on this we know, with absolute certainty, that there will be variability in Remington trigger parts and in the performance of Remington triggers. Remington's job was to design a trigger that could function properly in spite of these manufacturing variations AND to do their best to minimize the variations so their products would work as expected. Remington also had a duty (as does every manufacturer) to divulge risks of their products so consumers can take reasonable protections to avoid injuries.
It appears (based on reports now coming out) that since the Model 700 was introduced, a VERY small percentage of triggers were unsafe as produced, and that the design made it fairly likely that an improperly adjusted or maintained trigger might be unsafe. It also appears Remington did their best to hide the trigger failures from the gun-buying public.
There is no excuse for a trigger with a negative sear angle to get out of the factory mounted on a rifle. If that happened, EVEN ONCE, that is a failure of Remington's quality control. A negative sear angle was documented by a supporter of Remington in this thread. Apparently Remington screwed up the design and/or the manufacturing of these rifles if Remington sold a rifle with a negative sear angle.
Then there is the question of "information". The biggest liability of tobacco companies, lead smelters, and asbestos manufacturers came not from making an unsafe product, but from lying about the safety of their product, which encouraged people to use these things & lead to many injuries & deaths after the point the companies knew with reasonable certainty that there were safety problems with their products. This is where it appears Remington is in deep do-do if allegations are true. Remington, from all reports I've seen, paid off plaintiffs suing over damages to buy their silence, which kept others from knowing of potential problems with the Model 700 trigger. If that is proven, (a big if) then it's reasonable for a jury to award damages sufficient to keep any future company from behaving that way (called punitive damages). With a product like the Model 700, that was the core of Remington's profits for decades, punitive damages could be as high as all profits off the Model 700 since Remington knew there was a problem they should have fixed. If that happens, Remington will be bankrupt.
Is it bad that a company should be sued if they do something wrong that injures people? Not if you believe in FREEDOM. Our founding fathers had several choices in how to set up a country. They could have used the authoritarian model (like most countries at that time & throughout history) where subjects did exactly as the government told them under threat of death, or, they could give people freedom to do most things as they saw fit, knowing only that if they harmed anyone when doing something wrong that they would be required to pay damages. They chose to give people freedoms, and the responsibility of paying for any wrongs they committed. That's why this country has more lawyers per-capita than any other country. That was the plan. The other option is fascist rule where the government tells you exactly what to do. I prefer the freedoms even if it means the responsibility of paying for my damages.
So, If Remington was so arrogant that they thought they could simply buy victim's silence for decades without fixing product defects (as is alleged), I support those suing them. If it turns out Remington did nothing substantially wrong, I have faith a jury of Americans will find for Remington as they reach a verdict based on the facts in evidence before them..
I will say that I am in favor of replacing Remington triggers until we know how to identify Remington triggers likely to fail. Timney makes a great trigger, as does Jewell, and a few other companies.
I like Remington products. I've had a few, have some now, & would like a few more. I never liked the Remington Model 700 factory trigger & since I can now afford quality aftermarket triggers, I will be replacing the triggers in Remington rifles we have. My, and my family's safety is worth more than the price of some after-market triggers. This discussion should not be about liking Remington products, it should be about whether Remington did some people wrong & these people suffered damages that Remington should pay.
RangerEd
Active Member
I know this thread is really old, and I apologize for beating this dead horse once again. With that said, I felt I should post a reply here as I saw this exact accidental discharge happen yesterday and was hoping to offer maybe some information or warning. Again, maybe this is beating a dead horse.
I feel there was extenuating circumstances as this happened. We had invited a guest to our hunting lease. Just a regular Joe kind of good guy. He, not knowing a lot about guns except how to be safe with one. Someone had given him a scope and I mounted it for him in camp and took him out to the pasture to sight it in. After a few rounds were fired down range he loaded another and prepared for the shot. He forgot to take off the safety and squeezed the trigger (I don't know the amount of pressure he applied). Realizing the safety was still on, he engaged to the fire position ( no finger on the trigger) and the gun went off. I told him not to fire it any more and to sand it back to Remington explaining what happened and ask for a new trigger.
This was on a older ( I think it was a 12 year old) model 700 ADL in a 30-06. I don't know what kind of care it has received in its lifetime but I suspect by talking with him oil and cleaning fluid has probably gotten down into the trigger group.
This was shocking for me to see first hand and I just thought I should share this information as I saw it first hand.
I feel there was extenuating circumstances as this happened. We had invited a guest to our hunting lease. Just a regular Joe kind of good guy. He, not knowing a lot about guns except how to be safe with one. Someone had given him a scope and I mounted it for him in camp and took him out to the pasture to sight it in. After a few rounds were fired down range he loaded another and prepared for the shot. He forgot to take off the safety and squeezed the trigger (I don't know the amount of pressure he applied). Realizing the safety was still on, he engaged to the fire position ( no finger on the trigger) and the gun went off. I told him not to fire it any more and to sand it back to Remington explaining what happened and ask for a new trigger.
This was on a older ( I think it was a 12 year old) model 700 ADL in a 30-06. I don't know what kind of care it has received in its lifetime but I suspect by talking with him oil and cleaning fluid has probably gotten down into the trigger group.
This was shocking for me to see first hand and I just thought I should share this information as I saw it first hand.
rscott5028
Well-Known Member
You can easily test that. You don't have to wait until a live round is in the chamber. And, you should always assume it could happen even if you've verified that it isn't happening.
But, if your point is that it does happen, then I concur. So, send it back as your recommended before someone gets killed.
