Remington under fire

[jmden]

It could be left to individuals to replace their own triggers. I still feel the 700 is a good design and I like mine. My question is who makes a replacement trigger and safety, and will it really fix the problem ? I feel this is the question. I would rather buy a replacement trigger than sit and wait for Remington and the Courts to replace it. lightbulb

Jewell.

Edit: To be clear, I think Jewell's safety design is better than Remington's stock trigger and the overall construction and materials used to be better as well. For $225, they'd better be. But Rem can't afford to put one of these in every rifle they sell and they are still clearly adjustable to the point where they will fire with a slammed bolt, etc. That's the way triggers are. This isssue still comes down to one of personal responsibility...

 

[whitely]

As I posted earlier in this thread, on my Jewell triggers, I can adjust the sear engagement such that it will allow the firing pin to drop when the bolt is slammed home. I have also seen this happen with Rifle Basix triggers. Read the reviews at midwayusa.com, and you'll see that other people have experienced the same issue. I suspect that in nearly all cases, people have messed with the adjustments and either set the pull weight too low, or too little sear engagement.

The other day I decided to rewire my electrical panel, and then my house burned down. Clearly, Siemens designed a flawed panel, so I think I'm going to sue them, because they should have known I was going to do that.

 

[Kevin Thomas]

Just watched the entire MSNBC piece last night, and as I suspected it would be, it was anything but unbiased journalism. They had a bias to begin with, took a position and set out to substantiate that claim. Anyone watching this should have taken note of the numerous flaws in their own filming, such as poor gunhandling by their own people and evidence of scenes being set up by people who knew nothing about firearms. Throw in a healthy dose of creative editing, and downplaying or outright omitting anything that worked against their position, and there you have it.

I can feel sympathy for those involved in the accidents, but there were other violations of basic gun safety rules that were involved in all these cases.

Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA

 

[rem300ultra]

I have owned Remington 700 rifles since 1968. At this very moment I have over 20 different models of the 700 in my gun safes. I have never had a misfire with any of these rifles. I have a .220 Swift that has over 4000 rounds down the tube on prairie dogs with no problems. I go with the worked on triggers by people not knowing what they are doing. Just MHO.

 

[Len Backus]

on my Jewell triggers, I can adjust the sear engagement such that it will allow the firing pin to drop when the bolt is slammed home.

Some years ago I experienced this, too. The gunsmith who did it is a quality guy, he fixed it right away. He is not an LRH Sponsor, by the way.

 

[J E Custom]

In my earlier Post I stated that it was based on years of use and that I saw or had no
problems with this trigger.(I used a few more words than that though).

After reading many reports and watching every video that I could, plus all of the lawsuits
that are available, I decided to do some testing of my own and answer the question In
my mind. (I have no intent to change other peoples minds on this matter just settle it
in my mind).

There are some very emotional issues because of personal injuries or even death so I
avoided this side of it and I understand the position of some on this and feel great sympathy
for there loss. It is hard for me to comprehend hurting or loosing someone at your own
hands.

So first I sorted out all of my take off triggers to find the ones in question. I have quite an
assortment because I do not adjust any trigger. If it does not suit me I replace it with a
custom/ after market one that is pre set by the manufacture. (The ones that can be set
and come with a 6 pound lawyer I just pass on messing with them.

With that said I messed with all of these (On an action with no barrel and some on a
complete rifle that was loaded with a snap cap to duplicate a loaded round situation
and not alter the function of the rifle.

First I measured all of the non tampered with triggers sear engagements and found that
they were .030 to .041 Not .020 as stated in one of the reports. I had 7 that were set at
the factory and not altered.

Next I checked the over travel adjustment and found them to be very close to recomended
adjustments. I have seen videos of people loosening this adjustment all of the way off.
(Note: If you do this the connector does/may not return to its proper place and this is a
big problem).

I questioned the use of a separate piece on the trigger and found the connector to be much
harder than the trigger and this makes good sense to me because I have seen triggers break
because they were brittle and the connector needs to be hard to resist ware. Some triggers
have a hardened piece soldered to the trigger where it engages the sear.

Next I tried to duplicate the failures and found that the trigger would not malfunction
as they were (This was the position that the law suites took when asked to make the
trigger fail ).

I also adjusted each of the adjustments and I could make the trigger fail in all of the
conditions mentioned.

If I adjusted the over travel to far back I found that the trigger pull weight changed
dramatically and under worst case scenarios could fire with any movement of the
bolt or safety. this situation changed the sear engagement just like moving the sear
adjustment to engage less.

Next I found that If I moved the sear below minimum required it felt really crisp but
was unpredictable. (NO Big Surprise).

The same was true if I adjusted the trigger pull to light The trigger would fail most of
the time when the bolt was closed or the safety was switched off.

There was a lot of references about "Tricking the safety" and I could not make a properly
set trigger go off as Remington stated. (I did not have enough numbers statistically to find
the one that would/could).

If I adjusted the trigger improperly I could make it happen. My question on this matter is
"WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO TRICK A SAFETY". I assume it is to allow for murphy's
law.

There were many references to dirt and debris causing problems if it was present, and I
100% agree. But it is not just Remington triggers that are effected by this condition.

I would ask that No one consider this post a reason to by/use Remington products if they
are unsure. this was for my benefit only and my findings are not very scientific.

I just wanted to share what I found and and that proper maintenance and adjustments
appear to be the solution to most if not all of the issues for ALL triggers.

Safety is the responsibility of the fire arm handler and has nothing to do with my findings
they were strictly mechanical.

Ultimately the courts will have the last word and rightly so.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Boss Hoss]

This is the latest fallout---there will be a lot more in the future imho. Once this type of thing gets started then other Public Entities follow suit just to avoid any "possible" legal entanglements.

Needless to say this is going to get very interesting after the issue has been fully vetted.

Portland police drop rifles amid safety concerns | The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram

October 28

Portland police drop rifles amid safety concerns
Video of a local training exercise supports claims of faulty triggers in some Remington 700 rifles.
By David Hench [email protected]
Staff Writer


PORTLAND - The Portland Police Department's special reaction team has stopped using its Remington 700 sniper rifles, because one of them started firing unpredictably and a network news report said similar problems elsewhere have caused injuries and prompted lawsuits.


click image to enlargePortland Police Chief James Craig, shown at a news conference in May.

Staff file photo

Select images available for purchase in the
Maine Today Photo Store
See the CNBC story.

See the Remington response.


A program on CNBC last week highlighted several reports that Remington 700 rifles -- a mainstay for the U.S. military, law enforcement and gun enthusiasts -- had fired when the trigger had not been pulled.

The program's findings were bolstered by a video taken at a Portland police training exercise. One of the rifles was shown firing when the trigger was not being pulled.

"I don't want to run the risk of having an accidental discharge like this where it puts an officer's or community member's life in danger," Police Chief James Craig said Wednesday.

Remington denies the allegations and, supported by gun rights advocates, criticizes the network's reporting of the story.

"CNBC ignored facts and information provided by Remington and instead relied on allegations, misleading anecdotes, and false claims," said a statement on the company's website. "Over 5 million Model 700s have been safely and reliably used by millions of shooters, military personnel and law enforcement officers for almost fifty years. The Model 700 is the most popular bolt-action rifle in the world."

Remington said that if standard safety rules are followed, such as always pointing the barrel of a gun so that a discharge would not injure anyone, the alleged injuries could not have happened.

One of the most serious cases in which an accidental discharge is alleged occurred in 2000 in Montana, where a woman said she was unloading her rifle with the barrel pointed at an empty horse trailer. The gun fired and the bullet pierced the van's walls and hit her son on the other side, killing him.

It was one of two dozen deaths said to have resulted in part from faulty trigger mechanisms, the report said.

The woman has since sued the company, one of scores of similar suits nationwide, according to the TV report, which said Remington has paid out $20 million in settlements.

Columnists who criticized the CNBC program said the guns will not misfire if they are properly maintained and if the trigger mechanism is not adjusted.

However, Craig said his department's Remington 700 that misfired had not been altered.

After the first incident, in 2008 during a training exercise at a firing range, the weapon was taken to an armorer. The armorer found nothing wrong with it and could not re-create the misfire, so the gun was put back in service.

During another special reaction team training session, the gun misfired again, and the officers captured video of it on a cell phone. The video, which CNBC obtained, shows an officer prone, the rifle barrel supported by a bipod. The officer removes his finger from the trigger, then reaches forward to touch the bolt. The rifle fires.

The sequence was repeated with the same results.

After the training episode, the gun was again taken out of service. Craig said the department contacted Remington and was told the weapon was not under warranty.

That was in 2009. Only later did Portland officials become aware of the controversy over the weapon.

Craig said his department will no longer use its five Remington 700s, and has grant money to buy a new weapons system, at a cost of $1,000 to $1,500.

"We have no evidence that there's other weapons malfunctioning but we don't want to run that risk," he said.

For the time being, the department will use the officers' standard issue M-16 with a scope, he said.



Staff Writer David Hench can be contacted at 791-6327 or at:

[email protected]

 

[Fiftydriver]

I have worked with alot of Rem triggers, ranging from the old 721 and 722 triggers, XP-100 Standard Rem 700 and the new model as well(not much improvement).

In my opinion, they are what they are, like most factory triggers they have their faults which are often exaggerated by user error.

I would guess I have worked on nearly 1000 Rem 700 triggers over the years. Of those, I have had eight that I would say were seriously dangerous when they came into the shop but upon looking into the problems deeper I found out the reason.

Four of those triggers would fire when the safety was moved to the off position but why. Was it a poor sear angle, NOPE, not at all, in fact all had positive sear engagement angles which means when struck or impacted, the triggers sear engagement will increase instead of slip off and allow the rifle to fire.

What was the problem. Well, shooters that THOUGHT they were cleaning their rifles well and allowing solvent and more importantly oil to seap down into the trigger mechanisms. Some actually knew this was happening. Well over time, this solvent and oil turns into a sticky, hard substance and often times if the safety is on and the trigger was moved at all, it could be held in its rearward position. When the safety was turned off, BANG!!!

Trigger problem, NOPE, user error. I cleaned every one of those triggers up properly and every one of them functioned perfectly well and passed impact testing and proved to be safe when used CORRECTLY.

Three of these BAD Rem 700s were another case of incorrect care. In one example which was the first time I had seen this happen. The customer had a love afair with gun oil and coated everything with it, including bolt and striker assembly. Well, he took his rifle out one morning hunting. Had a good buck walk out in front of him and a faint click was all he heard......

Walked back to his truck, out the rifle in and headed home. About half way home, the rifle fired sitting next to him on the seat. Luckily he had the rifles muzzle pointed in a safe direction and all he got was a hole blown in his floorboard and some ringing ears.

He brought the rifle to my shop and I could not get the rifle to repeat what had happened, with an empty chamber of course this time. It took nearly 20 minutes talking to this guy but finally he started giving me details of the hunt. Apparently it was quite cold when he was hunting, below zero in fact.

The trigger had proven safe so after hearing this I pulled the bolt apart and the striker assembly was so gubbed up with oil it was a mess. I asked him how in the hell did all this oil get into the bolt, he said that is how you keep them working smooth!!!

I put the rifle in my freezer and told him to come back in the morning. That morning when he arrived I pulled the rifle out of the freezer and set it by the heater. We talked for a few minutes and then CLICK!!!!

I told him he made two mistakes, one, putting oil in the bolt but even more importantly, leaving the rifle loaded when he got into the truck.

The last and only trigger I have seen from Remington which I would say was honestly unsafe had a very negative sear angle and when it came from the factory the trigger was set at around 8 lbs. With this pull weight, it was enough to keep the sear engaged, when I tried to adjust the trigger down to a 3 lb pull, it would easily slip off. The customer just had me replace that trigger with a quality aftermarket trigger and the problem was solved.

Those are the only instances where I would say a Rem 700 came in that was unsafe but all but one was because of the actual trigger design.

Now, with that said, let me state that I have had dozens of Rem 700 rifles come in that were unsafe but not because of what Remington did or how they designed their triggers.

Some of these were simply because the trigger mechanism was very dirty with fine gritty sand or dirt, again improper care.

Most however were from one simple reason, the triggers were messed with by someone that had no idea what they were doing. It is not hard to get the trigger pull on a Rem 700 down to very comfortable levels, its quite another thing to be able to prove the trigger set to those pull levels are safe and will function properly.

There are WAY to many out there that THINK they know how to adjust a Rem 700 trigger but very few know how to test to prove its safe. There are just as many so called PART TIME gunsmiths out there that have no business working on any triggers.

The Rem 700 factory trigger should in most cases never be tuned lighter then 2.5 lbs and I prefer 3.0 lbs. They are not designed for lighter pull weights but many out there want 1.5 to 2 lb trigger pulls and often even much less then this. Can you get this, yep, is it safe, seldom.

That is not to say some Rem 700 triggers can not safely be tuned to this level. I have seen many over the years that would easily allow tuning down to 1 lb or even a bit less and be perfectly safe when used as a trigger of this pull weight should be used, but in the vast majority of cases, the pull weight of a Rem 700 when set much below 2.5 lbs becomes very inconsistant and that is not a good sign. A neutral or negative sear engagement will result in a slip fire if the rifle is impacted.

When testing a tuned Rem 700 trigger, several things need to be looked at before letting it out the door.

-Trigger assembly needs to be totally cleaned
-Contacting parts need to be inspected for flacky and chipping chrome plating which can be a common problem with older triggers. If present, replace parts.
-Sear engagement angle needs to be proven
-Sear engagement needs to be lubed with a quality lube that will not migrate or stiffen up in cold weather. (some will argue this, so be it)
-Trigger pull SHOULD increase in pull weight after you engage the safety and release it again (sign of positive sear angle)
-With safety on, trigger should be pulled completely to the rear, released slowly and safety dropped smartly, better not fire and trigger pull should increase compared to not putting safety on before firing.
-Trigger must withstand 10 good smacks with a non marring mallet and trigger pull should be heavier after impacts then before. Again, this tells you trigger has a positive sear angle.
-Owner should be instructed to keep trigger mechanism clean
-Owner is told to NEVER carry rifle loaded when moving in the field, even with safety on, NEVER carry a loaded weapon walking around in the field (number one mistake by most that get accidentally shot)

IF the adjusted trigger has a lighter trigger pull after dropping the safety compared to just testing the trigger normally, sear engagement is negative.

IF the trigger pull decreases after the impact test, again negative sear angle.

In either case, trigger needs to be replaced. Problem is this rarely happens and many just decide to live with the trigger if they even know of the situation at all which is most common.

Finally, I feel bad for these families but there are very few documented cases where the problem can not be tracked back to user error. Again, main thing, DO NOT WALK AROUND WITH A LOADED RIFLE and depend on the safety to keep you alive!!!

In all honesty, I wish there had never been a safety invented because all if does is allow many to depend on them instead of paying attention and handling a firearm correctly.

In nearly every situation, had the rifle been pointed in a safe direction no damage would have been done and in even more situations, if the firearm had not had a live round in the chamber after walking around all day or when grabbing the rifle out of the truck or any other situation, lives could have been saved.

Remember a rifle can not kill someone if its not pointed at someone....... We have sadly forgotten how to safely handle firearms and alot of that is because we do not require everyone to take hunters safety. We believe that someone that is an adult will automatically handle a firearm safely and responsibly, BULL!!! Everyone should be required to take a course to safely handle firearms.

So while I am sure there are design flaws in the Rem 700, I could take any factory trigger and find different or similiar flaws as well.

Should Remington have handled things differently, certainly, but I believe most of this is media driven and of that Remington WILL have to pay dearly, possibly putting it out of business. Is that a good thing...........

 

[Fiftydriver]

To those that have strikers drop when "SLAMMING THE BOLT HOME". My question would be WHY are you SLAMMING the bolt home.

I have guys up to the shop all the time that work their bolts like they are a piston in a gas engine!!! Slam em back, Slam em home!!! WHY. No need, even in the heat of the moment when a quick follow up shot is needed. These rifles are made out of steel for the most part but why beat them when there is no need to.... Would you turn your adjustment knob on your scope turret until it bottoms out and then give it a good twist JUST TO MAKE SURE ITS ALL THE WAY????? I think not. No reason.

ALso get a kick out of guys that pull their bolts back with enough force to throw their cases into the next county. THey WONDER why their bolt stops get bent out of shape...... NO NEED.

Use them as they are designed and you will have far fewer problems.

It says right in the jewell instructions that when adjusted to very light pull weights, the bolt needs to be manipulated in a deliberate mannor, not aggressively.

Why do we mistreat a finely adjusted mechanism.

If the striker is slipping off and the trigger has been adjusted properly, your trigger is not adjusted properly for the way YOU work your rifle and should be adjusted for YOU.

 

[mmhoium]

I am sorry that you feel that I am "In the weeds" as you said but in order for someone to
get hurt by a firearm a safety rule has to be broken plain and simple.

J E CUSTOM

First, to say that in order for someone to get hurt, they have to break a safety rule is ridiculous. Just as one example:

Thompson woman sues ammo company | WDAY | Fargo, ND

Next, I saw the CNBC special and what I found the most interesting was that shortly after the 700 trigger was introduced, its inventor suggested a simple fix that would cost very little. It was rejected as being too expensive. Move forward a couple decades and we see the Pro-X trigger which curiously has the exact same piece that was suggested back when the 700 trigger was introduced. This wasn't media speculation, this was evidence from a lawsuit in which Remington had to produce documents. The thought that a company would recognize a potential safety risk, have a solution offered, and deliberately ignore it is upsetting, no matter what industry we look at.

But, with most "documentaries" like this, I really doubt much will come of this. Fastforward 6-8 months, and I would guess no one will be talking about it. Whether you agree with the show or not, its somewhat interesting how they chose to portray Remington as this super giant that wants people to get hurt, ha.

-M

 

[whitely]

To those that have strikers drop when "SLAMMING THE BOLT HOME". My question would be WHY are you SLAMMING the bolt home.

It says right in the jewell instructions that when adjusted to very light pull weights, the bolt needs to be manipulated in a deliberate mannor, not aggressively.

Why do we mistreat a finely adjusted mechanism.

The Jewell manual also states the following:

Note: Rapid firing practices may require slightly more sear engagement or pull force to prevent unwanted firing.

The point of my post about the Jewell was to illustrate that nearly every trigger can fire accidentally if they are not adjusted appropriately, and this is a completely different design from the Rem 700 trigger. To answer your first question, perhaps "slam" isn't the appropriate description, but close the bolt "smartly", or with some force. These procedures have been described in many areas as appropriate safety checks, such as:

Remington Trigger Adjustments

And other descriptions like it.

 

[silvertip-co]

I wouldnt put any credence in anything I ever saw on the ComedyNotBusinessChannel...

 

[timbradley]

After what I just read about some of you people taking Remington's side, well it's true, morons are allowed to buy firearms like the rest of us. If the truth were on Remington's side they would have NBC in court right now, but they are taking on one victim at a time. This is not like the exploding Chevy truck. NBC had to back off or risk a lawsuit about the truck. But with the gun going off without the trigger being touched there are just too many witnesses around and thats why Remington won't file. I had my S&W recalled because of the saftey. And when I carry my concealed 45 cal. on my side I cannot know where the barrel is pointed at all the time. Do I leave it at home because it could go off at any time? No! I carry it because I know it will not go off without the trigger being touched. And if there was a problem with it I know Kimber would recall it ASAP. So don't give me that crap about where the barrel is pointed or that I was adjusting my trigger. I have been a heavy equipment operator for many years so I have seen and heard a lot of malfunction stories and yes manufactures do screw up. So again remember this word: Recall or My S==ts f==ked up Sir.

 

[timbradley]

Yes, this is what I do when I buy a new car, come home and take it apart, make sure its safe. Hoping they were not sued by some other party so they will not go out of buisness so I can drive on the highway all the dangerous people who did not take their car apart like me.