Redding neck sizing problem?

[Joe King]

You must have talked to a different person than I did. Not to be a ***** but I am calling BS. I own a 300wm FL bushing die.

With the die I have removing the decap hardware makes no difference. The bushing bottoms out just above the shoulder on a ledge and does not touch any part of the decapping assembly.
I even lowered the die enough to slightly crush a case and it still didn't size the whole neck.......Either I got a bad die and /or the guy at redding has his head up his ***....but in my case there is NO way to size the whole neck.
Buy or barrow a die, take it appart and you will see

I've seen the same thing, there's just a bit about 0.010 or so (just guessing I never bothered to measure) that the die doesn't (won't/can't) touch.

 

[RTK]

Why else would either die's information on Redding's web site:

Type S Bushing Dies | Redding Reloading Equipment: reloading equipment for rifles, handguns, pistols, revolvers and SAECO bullet casting equipment

?

Look really close at that picture, see the ledge where the bushing rests? Now look right below it, see that little portion of the neck below the bushing?
That does not get sized................. That is what I am going to machine

Don't need to hash it our with reeding they already told me and I can confirm it will not size the whole neck

The problem I have is that I reload TTSX (kalifornia BS zones) and they have those bands cut in the bullet, when I hit the perfect seating depth I'm only sitting on one band plus a tad, their ain't much bearing surface to begin with on 300 mag neck, and I feel one band+ isn't enough, I need the whole neck to catch all of the other band next to the shoulder.....

Maybe the neck sizing only die goes a little further, but the FL sure as hell doesn't

 

[Mikecr]

I've yet to see a bushing die that would size an entire neck. They have a land the bushing rests on, and this land area is not sized. It is of course possible to make a bushing die that does'nt rely on land resting.
There are custom bushing/bump dies with a shoulder built into the bushing, and these size the entire neck. I had one from Tubbs for a 6XC. My conclusion; There is nothing good in sizing necks down to the shoulder. It just brings donut into the mix and with this you can forget consistent tensions.

Normal bushings are not ID tapered, and would only make a mess of necks at a donut.

 

[Bart B]

Look really close at that picture, see the ledge where the bushing rests? Now look right below it, see that little portion of the neck below the bushing?
That does not get sized................. That is what I am going to machine.

That should do fine.

I'm gonna talk with Redding and find out why I was told their .308 Win. full bushing dies size case necks all the way to the shoulder.

 

[Bart B]

I've yet to see a bushing die that would size an entire neck. They have a land the bushing rests on, and this land area is not sized. It is of course possible to make a bushing die that does'nt rely on land resting.

Neil Jones make them and I've got a set: Micro Dies

There is nothing good in sizing necks down to the shoulder. It just brings donut into the mix and with this you can forget consistent tensions.

There are many who disagree and have zero issues doing so because they do things right with them. Nobody's shot any more accurate ammo than they have sizing the entire neck down. And nary a donut issue for dozens of reloads per case.

It's OK by us that do so if you don't believe we can do it. The Catholic church scoffed at and tossed in jail two folks claiming the earth was not the center of the universe. They finally got justice. All of us sizing case necks all the way to the shoulder have more patience than busy doctors. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Sorry if all this is beyond you.[/QUOTE]

 

[RTK]

That should do fine.

I'm gonna talk with Redding and find out why I was told their .308 Win. full bushing dies size case necks all the way to the shoulder.

Maybe .308's do but unfortunately mine falls pretty short, and now you know why I kinda wanted the full neck.

 

[Bart B]

Maybe .308's do but unfortunately mine falls pretty short, and now you know why I kinda wanted the full neck.

I think you're gonna do best with necks being full sized all the way to the shoulder. Which is why many folks just lap the neck on a standard full length sizing die out to a desired diameter. That die will then size fired cases with the best neck centering on the case shoulder.

If the .308 bushing dies do not size the whole neck, then I was wrong; and so is that guy at Redding who told me otherwise. That aside, the Redding full bushing dies do make very accurate reloads.

Here's what German Salazar has to say about the Redding bushing dies' "partial neck sizing" issues that's my feelings on it, too:

You're correct that the Type S die can be adjusted to provide partial neck sizing. Unlike the competition neck die which has a spring-loaded collar, the Type S will just let the bushing ride the case mouth up until the top of the bushing stops and then it will size to whatever degree is left.

The real question is whether using the unsized portion of the neck to center the cartridge in the chamber is practical. I think this is not an optimal solution for a few reasons. First, let's consider what we're really after - we want the bullet to get a good, well-centered start in the rifling. Now let's look at a few scenarios to get there.

A case that is only neck sized depends on the case body itself - or at least that's the theory - to center the bullet. In reality, the case is banana shaped to a greater or lesser degree, but always curved and it is highly unlikely that it will actually put the bullet into perfect, straight alignment in the throat. The fully resized neck and a bit of clearance in the throat mean that the bullet is likely pointed off center to some degree, following the curvature of the case.

A case that is full-length sized, but only partially neck sized, which is the condition you describe, depends on the unsized portion of the neck to center the bullet. The resized case body is still banana shaped, but has been sufficiently reduced in diameter at the shoulder to keep the curvature from wedging the case within the chamber. Now, we get to the unsized portion of the neck. There is approximately 0.001" diametrical clearance to the chamber neck on the unsized portion just from normal brass springiness. There is probably no more than 0.0005" diametrical clearance between the bullet and the throat and in many cases as little as 0.0002" clearance. In other words, there is one-half to one-fifth the clearance in the throat that there is in the unsized portion of the neck. Which is doing the alignment? If that were all, we could say there's no harm done by the partial neck sizing, but that isn't the whole story. Unless the bullet is perfectly concentric to the neck, there exists the possibility that the bullet's alignment in the throat is being influenced by the neck's eccentricity in relation to the bullet. If you're relying on two points to align the whole, those two points had better be perfectly concentric. The longer the unsized portion of the neck is, the greater likelihood of the neck inducing a misalignment in the throat due to imperfect neck to bullet concentricity.

Now the last scenario, a full-length sized case in which the neck is also fully sized. There is clearance at the neck and in the body of the case, the closest fit anywhere is the bullet in the throat. If the neck to bullet concentricity is good (although it needn't be perfect), then the bullet will find good alignment in the throat and the case body and neck will have minimal influence. Let's not forget that the base of the case is supported by the bolt face or the extractor to a certain degree as well; this is yet another influence on alignment. As you can see, there are several points from base to bullet that can have an effect. My procedure is to minimize the influence of those that I can control, namely the case body and neck, and let the alignment be dictated by the fit of the bullet in the throat and to some extent by the bolt's support of the base. Barring a seriously out of square case head, I don't think the bolt can have a negative effect on alignment, only a slightly positive effect from minimizing "case droop" in the chamber. Given that a resized case will usually have a maximum of 0.001" diametrical clearance at the web, this isn't much of a factor anyway.

In conclusion, I believe that allowing the bullet to find a relatively stress-free alignment in the throat by full length sizing (including the neck) and turning necks to enhance concentricity gives the bullet the best probability of a well-aligned start into the rifling. Additionally, I place a high value on easy bolt operation and true full length sizing helps that quite a bit. I favor easy bolt operation as a prone shooter because I keep the rifle in my shoulder for the entire string and struggling with the bolt not only can shift the buttplate (always with adverse consequences) but it is also a distraction from my attention to mirage and wind flags which ideally occupies all of the non-aiming time.

 

[TOM H]

Neil Jones make them and I've got a set: Micro Dies

.

[/QUOTE]

Neil Jones are little different than standard busing die


MICRO NECK SIZING DIE

THIS IS THE MOST VERSITLE HAND HELD NECK SIZING DIE AVAILABE TODAY. WHEN USED WITH OUR NECK/SHOULDER BUSHINGS, THE CASE NECK IS SIZED AND THE SHOULDER CAN BE MOVED BACK IN VERY PERCISE, CONTROLLED INCREMENTS. WE RECOMMEND THAT THE DIE BE ADJUSTED TO SIZE THE FULL LENGTH OF THE NECK AND SLIGHTLY BUMP THE SHOULDER EACH TIME THE NECK IS SIZED- STARTING AS SOON AS THE CASE IS FIREFORMED.

I've got 11 of Neil's neck dies but you don't have to size all the way down if you don't want to bump the shoulders. Reason he want you to bump them every time if using arbor press may not have enough leverage you have to move up to B-Square.

Here is something on the Wilson bushing


2. There are two allen screws on top of the Wilson neck die. Remove them and remove the top of the die. This will expose the recess for the neck bushing. Insert the bushing and reassemble the top to the die. The size number stamped on one side of the bushing should face up. If you want a tighter fit, place the numbers down. This will increase tension by .0003" if you are using a Wilson bushing.(Redding & Wilson bushings are interchangeable, but Redding bushings are the same size on both sides.)

 

[RTK]

UPDATE:
-----------After seeing how much of the neck I could not re-size (and problems there in) with the FL sizing bushed die I decided to order a neck sizing die. My reasoning being that I was going to machine the FL die and might screw it up so why not have a spare neck sizer just in case, and if it worked better I might not have to wreck the FL die.
I also had to run two bushing in steps to keep the run out down to .001 anyway. Kinda anal about that even though I doubt it makes a difference, especially with me behind the rifle.

The neck sizing die sizes the neck further than my FL die, (don't know why) at this point it will work fine for my needs from what I can tell.

Time to go do some prep work

 

[Greyfox]

Having loaded for five different Reminton 700's using S-dyes with Federal, Winchester, Lapua brass, I have found the wall thickness of unturned brass to run .014"-.015". If I take your measurements with a .308 bullet loaded of .331 your case thickness at the neck is .0115". You are then sizing the case .004" under with your neck dye which is on the tight site. It's possible that the combination of thin wall, very tight neck, and partial neck sizing that this deformation is being created. With Lapua and Winchester unturned brass I have never used an S dye under .334". My bushing size is .335". No expander is used. All chamber necks are different, but if your measurements are correct, I think you might be oversizing brass that is thin walled. IMHO.

 

[Bart B]

While excellent accuracy's been had with Redding's full bushing dies resizing bottleneck cases that headspace on their shoulders, I think the reason they're made to size only about 3/4ths of a fired case neck is Redding felt that was the most popular way reloaders used. In my opinion, that's based on the popular belief that loaded rounds rest in the bottom of the chamber when fired. Furthermore, the belief is if the case neck next to the shoulder's not sized down, that will help center the case neck better in the chamber neck as that round rests in the bottom of the chamber; the case neck near the shoulder will rest on the bottom of the chamber neck and that puts the bullet closer to perfect alignment with the bore than if it was sized down all the way to the shoulder.

In my measurements of how such bottleneck cases fit the chamber when fired, they don't fit that way at all. The case shoulder centers on the chamber shoulder and the case neck floats clear of the chamber neck. If the case neck's not centered on the case shoulder, it will not be centered in the chamber neck. So your sizing die had better well center the case neck on the case shoulder.

 

[lever-hed]

I have not yet heard one post asking why this guy is using a bushing die in the first place. If you just want to neck size and neck tension is not an issue, then just use a lee neck sizing die, it does the same thing and will not threaten to cause those types of bulges.

Anyway, it looks like the neck has been put in a death grip while still riding down in the press, either the bushing is way too small and your using a hydraulic press to size the thing andor your die setup is off. SAAMI specs show there is some taper from mouth to neck-shoulder junction anyway.

 

[Bart B]

SAAMI specs show there is some taper from mouth to neck-shoulder junction anyway.

I agree, but from what I glean from SAAMI specs, the taper's typically in chamber necks, not case necks.

 

[lever-hed]

You may be right.. But, what I'm getting at is this issue seems to be about neck tension. The original poster simply wanted to know what the bulge is all about, and everyone went off on a tangent about neck sizing ability of the die. That's all fine and dandy, but I am not a big believer in neck bushing dies unless you have a custom chamber.
Greyfox touched on it well I think – the bushing being used is too much down-sizing. Going with .001 increments is better served. Now, I do question where the .331 loaded dia comes from since SAAMI specifications are .343, and bushings offered by Redding for the .308 range from .335 to .343. That is consistent with SAAMI, and we're not talking about a custom chamber either ..(I don't believe). That just may be a turned or very thin walled cases. If he's turning, AND using that oversized bushing, that just maybe the problem.
The brass flows up through the neck, and the oversizing causes brass flow to stop or at least slow down a lot. ie that bulge. I would still suggest he would get more bang for his buck and less hassle using a collet neck-sizer such as lee, and/or turning necks, .. just my 2-c anyway. Good luck!