Redding competition shell holders - headspace

[Rhunter2]

I am thinking that I might have labeled the post wrong, given it is a belted cartridge. After reading all of these posts, I am of the opinion that the shoulder movement may not be excessive for a first firing. I likely took some life out of my brass while over working the brass. So if I set up my die to give me little or no shoulder bump is there a good way to square up the two. I know that was the point of the slight cam over. Or do you just set the desired shoulder bump and forget about the gap between the shell holder and die?

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

I am thinking that I might have labeled the post wrong, given it is a belted cartridge. After reading all of these posts, I am of the opinion that the shoulder movement may not be excessive for a first firing. I likely took some life out of my brass while over working the brass. So if I set up my die to give me little or no shoulder bump is there a good way to square up the two. I know that was the point of the slight cam over. Or do you just set the desired shoulder bump and forget about the gap between the shell holder and die?

you stated earlier that you bumped it .003 with a light touch but not firm contact to the shell holder ,correct ?? post#3

 

[Rhunter2]

you stated earlier that you bumped it .003 with a light touch but not firm contact to the shell holder ,correct ?? post#3

That is correct. That is also using the competition shellholder that is .010. If I used my standard holder I would be at .013.

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

That is correct. That is also using the competition shellholder that is .010. If I used my standard holder I would be at .013.

just to be clear most others are arguing that floating above is fine, yes that will work , bigeds method of putting a feeler gauge between them will be the most consistent option at this point for you - because it quickly takes the float out of the situation,

i personally would want to try to get the shell holders to work

.003 isn't far off , you could just go with that

also, if you think you worked em hard it'd probably good to anneal em now

 

[Rich Coyle]

My dies don't touch the shell holder.

 

[CatShooter]

I am thinking that I might have labeled the post wrong, given it is a belted cartridge. After reading all of these posts, I am of the opinion that the shoulder movement may not be excessive for a first firing. I likely took some life out of my brass while over working the brass. So if I set up my die to give me little or no shoulder bump is there a good way to square up the two. I know that was the point of the slight cam over. Or do you just set the desired shoulder bump and forget about the gap between the shell holder and die?

Think of it this way... the case is a semi rigid container to hold all the stuff together.
Ideally, the case would be a perfect fit to the chamber (0.000" all around), but that is not possible.
When we fire the case for the first time, it expands into all the loose space that we have, and it is getting closer to the ideal fit.

If the case is shorter than the chamber, then there are two possibilities.

1 - The case and chamber are dry. The primer moves pushes the case to the front of the chamber. The case body walls expand under pressure and stick to the chamber walls. The pressure increases until the thin walls fail to hold it together, the the rear part of the case moves back to the bolt face, while the case body stays stuck to the chamber walls.
This causes the case to "stretch" in front of the web, forming a thinned ring in the case.
The case is now permanently damaged.

Every time you fire a dry case that has ANY space between the bolt face and case, you will stretch the case by at least that amount (and maybe a thou or two more).

2 - The case is fired "wet", that is, rolled on pad with a lite oil (I use G-96), or kerosene. When the case walls expand during the first firing, they cannot stick to the chamber, and when the pressure pushes the case back against the bolt face, the whole body follows back and the case does not stretch at all.

Once the case is fired the first time, the key thought is how to reload it with the very least change in the fired case dimensions. Neck sizing does that very well.

The ideal case is a thou or two longer than the chamber, and you feel a slight resistance when closing the bolt.

If you bump the shoulder back, that space will cause the case to stretch on the next firing - if you continue to bump the case, then the case will continue to stretch.

If you neck size, the case will fire form to the chamber and stay that way.

A second note about "Bumping".
If you bump a case with a full length die, then you are making things 3 times more worse.
The Full length die, first squeezes the body as the case goes into the die. When you squeeze the body, you make the case grow longer, so the shoulder moves forward. So when you think you are bumping the case 2 thou, you are really pushing the shoulder back a hellova lot more than 2 thou... maybe 5 or 10 or ?? thou, depending on the size of the case and the body length and taper.
So... you push the case into the FL sizing die, the body squeezes, the shoulder moves forward, it hits the shoulder of the FL die, and now, since the shoulder cannot go back to where it was, the brass flows forward into the neck.
The neck is now longer, so you trim it off.
What you have actually done is remove brass from in front of the head, and trimmed the equivalent off of the mouth - a very destructive process.

If you really must bump (I can't think of a reason why)... then use a real, true Forster Bump Die. It does not touch the body, it just touches the shoulder.

While it is nice if the shell holder hits the ram, it is not necessary.
When the Redding Competition Shell Holders first came out, I bought 3 sets, 222, 06, and belted mag. I use the first two all the time... I have never use the belted mag set.

 

[bigedp51]

CatShooter

You raise the ram and screw the die down until the dies threads start to smoke and then give it two more full turns. This is called Gorilla cam over and you can tell these reloaders because one arm is much bigger just like a crab.

P.S. Please note I didn't say a word about lubing cases before shooting them, out of respect for you age. You should change your screen name to Methuselah...........

Signed your much younger buddy.
bigedp51 AKA Attila the Hun

 

[el matador]

Its true the die does not need to contact the shell holder. The results will be less precise. Redding makes the competition shell holders so you can have a firm cam-over and get the correct shoulder bump, which is the most precise and repeatable method of FL sizing. If you're not making firm contact then the press WILL resize each case differently. No question about it. You can minimize this by using good case lube or whatever, but the fact remains that each case will require differing amounts of force to resize. Your press has some spring to it, so the varying force will result in each case entering the die a different amount. You can measure how much spring your press has by the following: Lower your sizing die until it touches the shell holder, then lower the ram and screw the die down 1/8 turn more. I'll bet money that you can still press the handle all the way down, but this time it will have some resistance. 1/4 turn of the die equals 1/56th of an inch or about .018". Personally I don't see the point in dialing in 2 thou of shoulder bump when I'm using a press with 10 to 20 thou of spring.

If you only have 1 rifle to load for you can just shim your shell holder with tape or a metal shim. The Redding shell holders are nice, but they're even more nice if you load for multiple rifles that use the same holder.

 

[Rich Coyle]

el matador,
It looks like you and I are a long way apart here. If the press cams over it dos not know if the die is touching the shell holder or not. The operative thought is cam over.

 

[bigedp51]

el matador,
It looks like you and I are a long way apart here. If the press cams over it dos not know if the die is touching the shell holder or not. The operative thought is cam over.

When the die makes hard contact with the shell holder all the slop in the press and its linkage is removed. My 1973 Rockchucker is worn and has slop in the linkage and if I do not use the competition shell holders I would have more variations in the shoulder location.

Another good part about the competition shell holders is the die does not need to be adjusted for the amount of shoulder bump. All you do is change shell holders for more or less shoulder bump.

There are many type and design presses and some are OK without the shell holder making hard contact with the die and some are not.

 

[Rhunter2]

I am sending the die back to Forster, along with some cases. They wanted to take a look at them.