Redding competition shell holders - headspace

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

defeats the purpose of buying competition shell holders if your not making firm contact , what brand dies are you using ?? have you tried a different die ? reloaders have been not making firm contact forever to accomplish what you are trying to do. so yes it can work. but, you bought the competition set for a reason

may check measurements of the Redding shell holders to verify stamped same as it measures ,

if the rifle is not headspaced correctly, is there any warranty?? fix that first ...
does rifle have a barrel nut ?? this may be deciding factor in if its worth chasing a few thousanths

as mentioned above do you know anybody with a set of no go gauges, borrow them and check it out , where on the planet are you?

 

[CatShooter]

defeats the purpose of buying competition shell holders if your not making firm contact , what brand dies are you using ?? have you tried a different die ? reloaders have been not making firm contact forever to accomplish what you are trying to do. so yes it can work. but, you bought the competition set for a reason

may check measurements of the Redding shell holders to verify stamped same as it measures ,

if the rifle is not headspaced correctly, is there any warranty?? fix that first ...
does rifle have a barrel nut ?? this may be deciding factor in if its worth chasing a few thousanths

as mentioned above do you know anybody with a set of no go gauges, borrow them and check it out , where on the planet are you?

I am using Redding dies... the rifle can be head spaced PERFECTLY, and that does NOT solve this issue... the belted case head spaces on the BELT, not the shoulder.

"No Go" gauges for a belted case only checks the the head space of the belt, they do NOT check the shoulder measurement.


A belted headspace gauge...

If you spend much time reloading belted cases, you will find that no rifles are set up for tight shoulders... they all have space in front of the shoulder that blows out on the first firing - it is the nature of the beast.

 

[gator378]

Belted magnums headspace on the belt, but often have what is excessive room for the shoulder to move forward. You want to set the shoulder back only .002 or so. You ended up doing that, so you are good to reload. If you pushed the shoulder back a lot more, the case would fail just above the belt in a few reloads.

Belt less cases typically have a better match between rifle and dies, so this is not often such a problem. In any case you have the tools to measure shoulder bump and set it right.

I headspace my 300 Weatherby on the shoulder. No more separations.

 

[nmbarta]

I am using Redding dies... the rifle can be head spaced PERFECTLY, and that does NOT solve this issue... the belted case head spaces on the BELT, not the shoulder.

"No Go" gauges for a belted case only checks the the head space of the belt, they do NOT check the shoulder measurement.


A belted headspace gauge...

If you spend much time reloading belted cases, you will find that no rifles are set up for tight shoulders... they all have space in front of the shoulder that blows out on the first firing - it is the nature of the beast.

This is true, but does not mean that rifle can't have excessive headspace if it was chambered wrong.

The go no-go gauges will still tell him if the rifle was chambered correctly.

I'm not looking to argue here at all, but my understanding of this is a little different. My experiences with belted magnums is not near as extensive as yours, but I'm not new to them by any means. I enjoy learning from the more experienced guys on this site and stand to be corrected.

There should be space in front of the shoulder on both belted and non belted cases, and while I agree that the space in front of the shoulder on a belted case is not as critical as it is on a non belted case, it can still cause problems.

When a case is improved, the neck shoulder junction is commonly moved back a few thousandths for a snug or "crushed" fit. This basically sets the headspace at zero and does not allow for forward movement or at least minimizes it. It forces the brass outward toward the chamber wall rather than forward toward the chambers shoulder.
This is also why fire forming loads can be very accurate out of ai chamberings.

It may be that some factory brass on belted cases have a little less shoulder angle than specified, in which case that would explain why the datum line can be moved forward without stretching the case wall. I don't know if this is common or not, but would make sense.

I reload for a 7rm that moves the shoulder forward .014 on the first firing, which seems a bit on the excessive side to me. It's not just the shoulder though, the case mouth moves forward almost the same amount (this is just after firing, not after sizing), this indicates to me that the entire shoulder is being pushed forward by stretching the body of the case, not blowing the shoulder outward like in an ackley improved case.

After the first firing, I trim and bump the .002. I will only fire these cases 3 times, as I have had problems with hairline cracks in the case just above the belt about 1/8", (which is where theses cases commonly fail) after sizing the 5th firing.

I believe this is due to excessive headspace which is causing the body to stretch .014 on the first firing.

Just another take on it, it's important to know what is going on. Case head separations are not fun.

 

[CatShooter]

This is true, but does not mean that rifle can't have excessive headspace if it was chambered wrong.

The go no-go gauges will still tell him if the rifle was chambered correctly.

I'm not looking to argue here at all, but my understanding of this is a little different. My experiences with belted magnums is not near as extensive as yours, but I'm not new to them by any means. I enjoy learning from the more experienced guys on this site and stand to be corrected.

There should be space in front of the shoulder on both belted and non belted cases, and while I agree that the space in front of the shoulder on a belted case is not as critical as it is on a non belted case, it can still cause problems.

When a case is improved, the neck shoulder junction is commonly moved back a few thousandths for a snug or "crushed" fit. This basically sets the headspace at zero and does not allow for forward movement or at least minimizes it. It forces the brass outward toward the chamber wall rather than forward toward the chambers shoulder.
This is also why fire forming loads can be very accurate out of ai chamberings.

It may be that some factory brass on belted cases have a little less shoulder angle than specified, in which case that would explain why the datum line can be moved forward without stretching the case wall. I don't know if this is common or not, but would make sense.

I reload for a 7rm that moves the shoulder forward .014 on the first firing, which seems a bit on the excessive side to me. It's not just the shoulder though, the case mouth moves forward almost the same amount (this is just after firing, not after sizing), this indicates to me that the entire shoulder is being pushed forward by stretching the body of the case, not blowing the shoulder outward like in an ackley improved case.

After the first firing, I trim and bump the .002. I will only fire these cases 3 times, as I have had problems with hairline cracks in the case just above the belt about 1/8", (which is where theses cases commonly fail) after sizing the 5th firing.

I believe this is due to excessive headspace which is causing the body to stretch .014 on the first firing.

Just another take on it, it's important to know what is going on. Case head separations are not fun.

WOW... I don't know where to start...

The reason you are getting head separations is because you do not understand headspace or setting up dies for reloading.

I have been reloading since 1954, spent 9 years as a gunsmith, owned an ammunition company for 5 years, and I currently load for 26 calibres.

I load a LOT, and I have NEVER had a head separation, ever. How come???

This is true, but does not mean that rifle can't have excessive headspace if it was chambered wrong.

Nothing here indicates that the rifle was chambered wrong, so please don't introduce this red herring... it just clouds everything.

The go no-go gauges will still tell him if the rifle was chambered correctly.

It will NOT - it will only tell if the head space is within limits (but you need TWO gauges for that)

There should be space in front of the shoulder on both belted and non belted cases, and while I agree that the space in front of the shoulder on a belted case is not as critical as it is on a non belted case, it can still cause problems.

Not true - there is absolutely NO need for space in front of the shoulder - new cases are shorter than chambers so that everybody's cases will fit all gun makers chambers... for the first shot.
After that there should be "0" space, or slightly negative space (crush).

Space in front of a belted case will NOT cause problems, space in front of a belt-less case will cause stretching if the case is fired dry - if it is fired wet, it will not stretch.

When a case is improved, the neck shoulder junction is commonly moved back a few thousandths for a snug or "crushed" fit. This basically sets the headspace at zero and does not allow for forward movement or at least minimizes it.

Most owners of Ackley chambers have serious head separation problems, because "a few thousandths" is not enough to hold the case in place, and 'smiths are too cheap to buy proper gauges to do Ackley chambers.

It forces the brass outward toward the chamber wall rather than forward toward the chambers shoulder.

Not true... The basic case is blown out and forward when fired in an Ackley chamber.

This is also why fire forming loads can be very accurate out of ai chamberings.

Not true.

It may be that some factory brass on belted cases have a little less shoulder angle than specified, in which case that would explain why the datum line can be moved forward without stretching the case wall. I don't know if this is common or not, but would make sense.

This is sooooo dumb as to defy description.
You are just guessing without any knowledge.

I reload for a 7rm that moves the shoulder forward .014 on the first firing, which seems a bit on the excessive side to me. It's not just the shoulder though, the case mouth moves forward almost the same amount (this is just after firing, not after sizing), this indicates to me that the entire shoulder is being pushed forward by stretching the body of the case, not blowing the shoulder outward like in an ackley improved case.

It is not excessive... it is what it is. The chambers for belted cases do NOT have rigid standards... it is the belt that controls the headspace - I do not understand why you are having problems understanding this...

After the first firing, I trim and bump the .002.

Why do you "bump" 0.002"... and from what reference point? Do you have problems closing the bolt?? If not, then why are you bumping the shoulder?
Oh, yeah... you read it somewhere, and you do it because - Uh, you don't know why you do it.

I will only fire these cases 3 times, as I have had problems with hairline cracks in the case just above the belt about 1/8", (which is where theses cases commonly fail) after sizing the 5th firing.

I believe this is due to excessive headspace which is causing the body to stretch .014 on the first firing.

PLEASE explain why you think you have excess head space - all I see is poor loading technique.

Just another take on it, it's important to know what is going on. Case head separations are not fun.

You should NEVER have head separations, with belted or non-belted cases - NEVER EVER!!!

 

[el matador]

Just use a piece of new brass to check your headspace. First measure the distance from the belt to case head on your brass to see where you're at. SAAMI specs are .220" from case head to top of belt, but they allow -.008" tolerance on the brass and +.007" on chamber headspace. So you could have .015" of slop and still be within specs on brass and chamber.

So let's pretend you measure your brass at .218". If you can fit more than .009" of tape on the case head and still chamber it you have excessive headspace.

Redding dies are usually pretty good but every company on earth cranks out some bad parts on occasion. By using the technique above you can figure out exactly where that .025" of slop is coming from. It will be a combination of brass, chamber, and dies so you're just looking for which one is contributing the most.

Measure those shell holders too!

 

[bigedp51]

Most GO and NO-GO gauges have .003 to .004 between the two gauges and used to set up new barrels.

"BUT" if you look at the SAAMI drawing below the case belt can vary from .212 to .220. And the chamber headspace minimum is .220 and maximum is .227. Meaning with a thin belt and a chamber at max headspace you have .015 head clearance or air space between the rear of the case and the bolt face.

Rimmed and belted cases are from a earlier age when manufacturing tolerances were not up to the standards we have today. Below on the left a modern .450 Martini Henry cartridge and on the right a cartridge from 1879 Zulu war. And as you can see a rimmed or belted case could be made very crudely and still chamber and fire.

Below a new unfired .303 British cases in a Wilson case gauge. And the rim is stopping the case from dropping further into the gauge and allowing the case to rest on its shoulder.

Below a fired .303 British case in the Wilson gauge and resting on its case shoulder.

Below a new unfired .303 British case on the left, a once fired case in the middle, and on the right a case fired three times and full length resized each time. Meaning the case headspaced on its rim and not its shoulder and allowed to stretch excessively each firing. And a military Enfield rifle at max headspace of .074 and a case with a rim thickness of .058 will have .016 head clearance.

Bottom line, a belted cartridge with a rifle at max headspace of .227 and a case with a belt thickness of .212 will have .015 head clearance. And normally you want .001 to .002 shoulder bump after sizing that would be the same amount of head clearance when the cartridge is chambered.

 

[bigedp51]

CatShooter old buddy

I do not own any belted magnum rifles for a very good reason. I grew up reading Jack O'Connor stories and know the .270 Winchester is the worlds best non-belted magnum.

And below is my first reloading equipment for my .270 rifle. "BUT" I had to switch to a Rockchucker press and full length dies after a few neck sizing's in order to bump the shoulders back.

 

[nmbarta]

Catshooter,
I wasn't arguing with you, your a bit aggressive, but that's fine, I don't offend easily.

The only rifle I've ever had problems with is this 7rm. I believe it has excessive headspace for a couple of reasons. 1. Very flat primers under mild loads with no other pressure signs. 2. The case mouth moves forward .012-.014 after the first firing, I've never ran into this issue before, I'm not 100% sure what is causing this, but it seems to me the case wall is stretching more than it should. 3. Case head separation. I should point out that I don't load for it now, and it's going to my smith to make sure it's okay, which a I believe anyone should do if they have questions about the safety of their rifle.

I said go and no-go, that's two gauges. "it will not, but it will tell you if the head space is in limits" That's what I was getting at, the go and no go gauges would let him know if his headspace is right. When I said chambered correctly, I meant head spaced correctly, I'm not a smith and am sure that there is more to correctly chambering a rifle than just headspacing correctly.

"not true, there is no need for space" Then you say there is space there?
With factory ammo or first loadings, there should be space, that's what I said, but there can be too much space. I don't know exactly how much is too much, maybe .014-.040 is fine in a belted case. I load for a couple other belted magnums and the most any of them move is .007. I've had no problems with any of them.



I'm not sure why you think I have poor loading techniques, I'm always up for learning something new. The only thing I have explained is that I bump the shoulder .002.

After they are fully fire formed (usually two firings) I bump the shoulder because I don't like the case to fit too tight in the chamber. All of my rifles are hunting rifles, I don't like to feel the bolt close on the case. Basically, I'm using the shoulder to determine the headspace in my reloaded rounds, I which case the belt no longer determines the headspace. I understand the difference between headspacing a chamber when your chambering a rifle and then using your dies to determine your actual headspace when you size your brass. I measure from the case head to the datum line using a headspace comparator and dial calipers. I remove the primer for this when I'm setting up my die so that I know I'm not getting false readings from the primer. With my 280ai, I have a short piece of barrel that my smith made for me that was cut with the same reamer at the same time, so I can measure exactly how it fits in my chamber. I prefer this, but don't have one of these for all of my rifles.

Works good for me.

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

I am using Redding dies... the rifle can be head spaced PERFECTLY, and that does NOT solve this issue... the belted case head spaces on the BELT, not the shoulder.

"No Go" gauges for a belted case only checks the the head space of the belt, they do NOT check the shoulder measurement.


A belted headspace gauge...

If you spend much time reloading belted cases, you will find that no rifles are set up for tight shoulders... they all have space in front of the shoulder that blows out on the first firing - it is the nature of the beast.

the OP's problem is its blowing out farther than his thickest shell holder , read the first post again

thats weird, i checked all of my belted magnum headspace 338 300 and 7rm with an actual gauge, just like the one in your picture. all can be sized to headspace off the shoulder now ALL using the +10 or less in the Redding comp shell holder set ?? again , the OP's problem is its blowing out farther than his thickest shell holder

i agree , as stated above i have 3 examples that you are correct and understand the belted case , but what if its farther

, what if its NOT Perfectly headspaced , and covered under some warranty ... if , it did have to be tightened up wouldnt inturn also bring that secondary shoulder headspacing tighter as well ??

 

[CatShooter]

CatShooter old buddy

I do not own any belted magnum rifles for a very good reason. I grew up reading Jack O'Connor stories and know the .270 Winchester is the worlds best non-belted magnum.

And below is my first reloading equipment for my .270 rifle. "BUT" I had to switch to a Rockchucker press and full length dies after a few neck sizing's in order to bump the shoulders back.

Meeee toooo.

I read Jack and .270 is one of my favorites. I have a full stock, spoon handle Mauser with double set triggers that I love.

I read Keith and wound up with two M-27's, one with the 8-3/8" barrel, and old aged ivory grips.

 

[bigedp51]

On new rimmed or belted cases it doesn't matter how short the case shoulder is from the chambers shoulder. and with the variations in chambers and dies you may need more than a +.010 competition shell holder or thicker feeler gauge between the shell holder and die.

GO and NO-GO gauges are for setting up new rifles or when replacing a barrel and it is not the maximum headspace allowed. If you look at SAAMI chamber and cartridge drawings the majority have .010 between min and max headspace.


Pacific Tool and Gauge offers three lengths of headspace gauges per rifle caliber. In order from the shortest to longest, they are: GO, NO-GO, and FIELD:

1. GO: Corresponds to the minimum chamber dimensions. If a rifle closes on a GO gauge, the chamber will accept ammunition that is made to SAAMI's maximum specifications. The GO gauge is essential for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight, accurate and safe chamber that will accept SAAMI maximum ammo. Although the GO gauge is necessary for a gunsmith or armorer, it usually has fewer applications for the collector or surplus firearms purchaser.
   
   
2. NO-GO: Corresponds to the maximum headspace Forster recommends for gunsmiths chambering new, bolt action rifles. This is NOT a SAAMI-maximum measurement. If a rifle closes on a NO-GO gauge, it may still be within SAAMI specifications or it may have excessive headspace. To determine if there is excessive headspace, the chamber should then be checked with a FIELD gauge. The NO-GO gauge is a valuable tool for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight and accurate chamber.
   
   
3. FIELD: Corresponds to the longest safe headspace. If a rifle closes on a FIELD gauge, its chamber is dangerously close to, or longer than, SAAMI's specified maximum chamber size. If chamber headspace is excessive, the gun should be taken out of service until it has been inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith. FIELD gauges are slightly shorter than the SAAMI maximum in order to give a small safety margin.

 

[Rhunter2]

The comp shell holders are primarily designed for use with non-belted cases where the headspace of the chamber is closely measured (with gauges) when the barrel is fit, so it will fall insided a range of 10 thou... so you get shell holders with a range of 10 thou.

But belted cases have two headspaces... the formal "headspace" on belted cases is determined by the belt, not the shoulder. But the working headspace for handloaders is on the shoulders, just like standard cases.

It is common for belted cases to have a lot of space in front of the shoulder before being fired.
The shoulders on my 264 Win Mag cases blow forward 32 thou on the first firing, but come out of the chamber perfectly formed.

Then I set up the dies on the shoulder.

The common rule on belted cases is: Belted cases headspace on the belt for the first firlng, and then on the shoulder after that.

So adjust your dies for the shoulder, not the belt.

Your ladder will be fine.

Thanks for sharing this. This explains some things that I was not aware of.

 

[Rhunter2]

Rhunter2, you're correct that the die could be short or the chamber too long. Either way it doesn't matter much if you're getting a good shoulder bump.

What kind of barrel are you running, and what brand of dies? Cheaper factory rifles tend to have roomy chambers that are several thousandths larger than the SAAMI minimum dimensions, and cheap dies tend to resize brass to well under the max case dimensions. With such a combo you can end up working your brass a lot (both the length and the width). Match-grade chambers and good dies don't usually have the same problems.

The barrel is just the factory barrel on a mrc x2 and the dies are Forster bench rest.