Greyman, sorry if what I said wasn't very clear, but in a nutshell our LA deer aren't very big so it's like shooting thru 10'' of lung surrounded by 2 popsicle sticks(ribs) which I don't feel is enough for most bullets to initiate expansion, let alone the copper we are mandated to use. Again I try to avoid shoulders in an effort to save meat. On depredation hunts we almost exclusively use Lehigh Defense controlled chaos bullets. They come apart and take out the heart and lungs, all shots are less than 70 yards, and I haven't grouped well at longer ranges so I don't use them hunting. There are plenty of big deer in California, but not in my neighborhood.
Deer season here seems to end before the cold weather and rut really even gets here so I don't see the bruiser steroid looking deer like others states I've hunted late season.(except for the LA zone archery tag that goes to december 31).
Again these are my observations from hunting my local zones.