memtb
Well-Known Member
Now I feel foolish, I was just trying to give you "cr@¥" about using a "brake"! I didn't notice the word, "break" rather than "brake"! memtb
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Now I feel foolish, I was just trying to give you "cr@¥" about using a "brake"! I didn't notice the word, "break" rather than "brake"! memtb
memtb
Well-Known Member
I respectfully disagree....the pain felt from the recoil when "not" allowed to move with the recoil, will be exponentially greater than if allowed to move. My thought process suggests that the greater the pain, the greater the absorbed recoil. If anyone wants to contest my theory pertaining to "rolling with the punch" vs back to an immovable object...be my guest. Awaiting test results!
memtbyeah, just a failure in communication on terms and agreed definitions.
Hence why the previous poster mentioned some of the science and technical terms that people who study this agree on.
The energy transferred to your body is the same.
How your body handles it varies on many factors.
You are describing those variables, not the actual recoil itself.
The rifle recoil energy remains the same.
So, you can make small adjustments
1.recoil pad
2. how you hold the rifle (loose, tight, or just right)
3 how much you absorb directly vs expand the absorption over time.
etc. etc. etc.
long story short, these adaptations do nothing in the long term....shooting 50 or 100 rounds, your body is going to absorb a large amount of punishment.
Muzzle brake can simply eliminate 85% of the energy so you do not need to absorb it, no matter how you have chosen to absorb it.
A good "silencer" can absorb 50%
Hence, in the grand scheme of things....this is the point that has been made.
climbing a ladder carrying 80# roofing shingles is going to do you damage, no matter how good you are at it and how much you know how to do it "right"
Hence, we don't do it anymore (any building company USA wanting to limit their liability exposure) we use cranes, or lifts to place.
It is just physics.
Nature does not care if you understand or agree.
PS, people have an amazing ability to deny their mortality...they don't want to think that wear and tear is cumulative, that your body wears down...hence why it is so hard to get people to consistently wear hearing protection.
Oh this 1/2 hour mowing the lawn won't do any lasting damage.
The loud music is the point of the rock concert...it won't hurt my hearing in the long run...etc. etc. etc.
As the saying goes, you do you...
but I will avoid high recoil for the same reason I wear hearing protection.
We have the technology...there is no reason to take the abuse anymore.
Hence why the previous poster mentioned some of the science and technical terms that people who study this agree on.
The energy transferred to your body is the same.
How your body handles it varies on many factors.
You are describing those variables, not the actual recoil itself.
The rifle recoil energy remains the same.
So, you can make small adjustments
1.recoil pad
2. how you hold the rifle (loose, tight, or just right)
3 how much you absorb directly vs expand the absorption over time.
etc. etc. etc.
long story short, these adaptations do nothing in the long term....shooting 50 or 100 rounds, your body is going to absorb a large amount of punishment.
Muzzle brake can simply eliminate 85% of the energy so you do not need to absorb it, no matter how you have chosen to absorb it.
A good "silencer" can absorb 50%
Hence, in the grand scheme of things....this is the point that has been made.
climbing a ladder carrying 80# roofing shingles is going to do you damage, no matter how good you are at it and how much you know how to do it "right"
Hence, we don't do it anymore (any building company USA wanting to limit their liability exposure) we use cranes, or lifts to place.
It is just physics.
Nature does not care if you understand or agree.
PS, people have an amazing ability to deny their mortality...they don't want to think that wear and tear is cumulative, that your body wears down...hence why it is so hard to get people to consistently wear hearing protection.
Oh this 1/2 hour mowing the lawn won't do any lasting damage.
The loud music is the point of the rock concert...it won't hurt my hearing in the long run...etc. etc. etc.
As the saying goes, you do you...
but I will avoid high recoil for the same reason I wear hearing protection.
We have the technology...there is no reason to take the abuse anymore.
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Preach, brother. Preach.
memtb
Well-Known Member
I agree with most if not all of your response and I understand the many methods to mitigate recoil, by redirecting energy, absorbing energy, ect. I understand the cumulative effects of recoil , similar to repeated head blows in football. All of that said, under identical circumstances, assuming the bodies are free to move....does the "big guy" absorb more recoil than the "little guy"? Inquiring, but conflicted minds, need to know! memtb
memtbpick up truck runs into vw bug head on.
Both vehicles absorb the same amount of energy...your equal and opposite observation.
since f=mxa
The guy in the truck has more mass, he sees less acceleration.=he lives
The guy in the VW has much less mass...hence absorbing the exact equal amount of energy...his vehicle not only de-accelerates, but rebounds in the opposite direction causing whiplash. Driver in the smaller vehicle "feels" this rapid acceleration as his neck breaking.
less mass, smaller guy is going to feel more rapid movement from recoil, usually more painful, as previous poster mentioned. Your experience may vary.
Perhaps light guy is all relaxed muscle and big guy is weak fat....but that has nothing to do with the basic recoil.
Both vehicles absorb the same amount of energy...your equal and opposite observation.
since f=mxa
The guy in the truck has more mass, he sees less acceleration.=he lives
The guy in the VW has much less mass...hence absorbing the exact equal amount of energy...his vehicle not only de-accelerates, but rebounds in the opposite direction causing whiplash. Driver in the smaller vehicle "feels" this rapid acceleration as his neck breaking.
less mass, smaller guy is going to feel more rapid movement from recoil, usually more painful, as previous poster mentioned. Your experience may vary.
Perhaps light guy is all relaxed muscle and big guy is weak fat....but that has nothing to do with the basic recoil.
memtb
Well-Known Member
I can't/won't debate your points. As we all have different pain thresholds, and differing opinions of discomfort, and we can't comprehend what another person feels. Therefore, with the only subject of my testing being me, my findings are thus.....my only discomfort is the pain I feel in my shoulder after a session of bench work. No headaches, no neck pain, just a sore shoulder the day after.....I guess I'm fortunate!
Good discussion, interesting viewpoints! I'm glad you didn't recoil from the subject matter! Happy shooting/hunting! memtb
Good discussion, interesting viewpoints! I'm glad you didn't recoil from the subject matter! Happy shooting/hunting!
memtb
I find the issue of recoil both interesting and important: interesting, from a physics point of view; important, from a shooting effectiveness point of view. In the latter case, reducing recoil, and in particular the resulting muzzle rise from the recoil force applied to the upper part of the torso, which acts as a class 2 lever, improves the ability to get back on target quickly for follow-up.
There are other issues, of course - satisfaction with the process of shooting, which is diminished by recoil-induced pain, accuracy degradation resulting from recoil-induced flinch, accuracy degradation from body motion variability shot-to-shot, etc. but the physics always help understanding.
Leaving aside the issue of getting back on target quickly, I find that most of my conversations about recoil center about one phenomenon: pain. Flinch-inducing pain, enjoyment-reducing pain, black and blue mark creating pain. The most common ways to reduce that pain are 1) to reduce the recoil force - i.e. velocity - and thereby energy, which varies as the square of that velocity, and 2) to mitigate the impingement of the force on the shoulder.
For the former, either add weight to the rifle (a seldom-mentioned reason for the addition of a scope, but it's there) or add a muzzle brake, which redirects the gas component of the recoil vector sideways and rearward, offsetting the bullet component.
For the latter, add a recoil pad to the rifle, both to increase the duration of the recoil impulse, to reduce the force imparted to the shoulder per unit time, and to increase the surface area over which the force is transmitted by improving the conformance of the buttstock to the shape of the shoulder as the pad deforms under the recoil force.
There's another way to accomplish the latter, as well, and that is to further increase the area across which the recoil force is distributed, reducing the pressure per square inch imparted to the shoulder. As a thought experiment, visualize interposing a plywood plate between your shoulder and the rifle. The perceived recoil would be much less, because the force is distributed over a larger surface area as the rifle decelerates; the mass of the plywood is not the perceived reduction agent - the reduction in the force per unit area is.
I have experimented with interposed recoil diffusers of various types on the shoulder of my shooting vest, with great success - I can shoot a .458 Magnum custom rifle I had built for me about 40 years ago with no flinch, no pain. It is a heavy rifle, to be sure - and Mag-na-ported, Mannlicher stocked, with rollover comb and thick ventilated recoil pad - but the recoil pad coupled with the recoil diffuser I added to the vest back then allowed me to ignore the rifle's recoil completely - since the force is distributed over an area 4 times that of the recoil pad itself - and focus on the sights, target, and trigger.
Behind the leather shoulder patch, on the inside of the vest, I sewed a flexible vinyl floor tile, cut to match the area of my right pectoral, front deltoid, and clavicle end, and wrapped with glued-on soft rubber padding, into a pocket - sewed to the inside of the vest - that was made of tanned buffalo hide. The clavicle area received extra padding. I heated the tile up to make it flexible, and lay with a bag of shot over it to form it to the contours of my chest and shoulder area until it cooled. It is stiff enough to act as a form-fitting, lightweight, padded plate that distributes the recoil imparted by the rifle's recoil pad over its entire surface.
It weighs almost nothing, doesn't get in the way of movement or slinging the rifle, is an integral part of the vest, and works with any of the rifles I shoot. The reduction in perceived recoil is absolutely dramatic - as I said, the .458 is a fun plinker even with 500 grain solids. I have used it with shotgun, .375 H&H Magnum, a lightweight .30-06, etc. and it made shooting, if not like a .22, pretty close - a painless and bruise-less experience. Thought I'd share that result.
There are other issues, of course - satisfaction with the process of shooting, which is diminished by recoil-induced pain, accuracy degradation resulting from recoil-induced flinch, accuracy degradation from body motion variability shot-to-shot, etc. but the physics always help understanding.
Leaving aside the issue of getting back on target quickly, I find that most of my conversations about recoil center about one phenomenon: pain. Flinch-inducing pain, enjoyment-reducing pain, black and blue mark creating pain. The most common ways to reduce that pain are 1) to reduce the recoil force - i.e. velocity - and thereby energy, which varies as the square of that velocity, and 2) to mitigate the impingement of the force on the shoulder.
For the former, either add weight to the rifle (a seldom-mentioned reason for the addition of a scope, but it's there) or add a muzzle brake, which redirects the gas component of the recoil vector sideways and rearward, offsetting the bullet component.
For the latter, add a recoil pad to the rifle, both to increase the duration of the recoil impulse, to reduce the force imparted to the shoulder per unit time, and to increase the surface area over which the force is transmitted by improving the conformance of the buttstock to the shape of the shoulder as the pad deforms under the recoil force.
There's another way to accomplish the latter, as well, and that is to further increase the area across which the recoil force is distributed, reducing the pressure per square inch imparted to the shoulder. As a thought experiment, visualize interposing a plywood plate between your shoulder and the rifle. The perceived recoil would be much less, because the force is distributed over a larger surface area as the rifle decelerates; the mass of the plywood is not the perceived reduction agent - the reduction in the force per unit area is.
I have experimented with interposed recoil diffusers of various types on the shoulder of my shooting vest, with great success - I can shoot a .458 Magnum custom rifle I had built for me about 40 years ago with no flinch, no pain. It is a heavy rifle, to be sure - and Mag-na-ported, Mannlicher stocked, with rollover comb and thick ventilated recoil pad - but the recoil pad coupled with the recoil diffuser I added to the vest back then allowed me to ignore the rifle's recoil completely - since the force is distributed over an area 4 times that of the recoil pad itself - and focus on the sights, target, and trigger.
Behind the leather shoulder patch, on the inside of the vest, I sewed a flexible vinyl floor tile, cut to match the area of my right pectoral, front deltoid, and clavicle end, and wrapped with glued-on soft rubber padding, into a pocket - sewed to the inside of the vest - that was made of tanned buffalo hide. The clavicle area received extra padding. I heated the tile up to make it flexible, and lay with a bag of shot over it to form it to the contours of my chest and shoulder area until it cooled. It is stiff enough to act as a form-fitting, lightweight, padded plate that distributes the recoil imparted by the rifle's recoil pad over its entire surface.
It weighs almost nothing, doesn't get in the way of movement or slinging the rifle, is an integral part of the vest, and works with any of the rifles I shoot. The reduction in perceived recoil is absolutely dramatic - as I said, the .458 is a fun plinker even with 500 grain solids. I have used it with shotgun, .375 H&H Magnum, a lightweight .30-06, etc. and it made shooting, if not like a .22, pretty close - a painless and bruise-less experience. Thought I'd share that result.
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I recently put a Pachmeyer decelerator on a 300 WM and it works great.
My wife has a 6 lb 243 that we put a limb saver on and it sticks to the floor evertime you set the gun down. Not sure what happened to the Limbsaver but my experience is, they do work but the sticky recoil pad picking up debris is a pain.
My wife has a 6 lb 243 that we put a limb saver on and it sticks to the floor evertime you set the gun down. Not sure what happened to the Limbsaver but my experience is, they do work but the sticky recoil pad picking up debris is a pain.
Check out UM Tactical for really innovative Muzzle brakes. AND RIFLES and Holsters other stuff.
https://www.umtactical.com/store/c6/RAGE_TCS_COMPENSATORS.html
https://www.umtactical.com/store/c6/RAGE_TCS_COMPENSATORS.html
D in lv
Member
All kinds of great discussion of ways to minimize felt recoil. Though it is not neseccary to keep my eyes open through the recoil, I find more consistent results when I can. For me takes quite a bit of concentration. It's pretty easy with a .243 but a lot tougher with a 270 wsm. The heavy magnums, no way.
memtb
Well-Known Member
GeorgeS, Good write-up. Your rather elaborate system, sounds like a great system for bench work....without the use of "brakes"! I would love to have a suppressor on a designated long range rifle, but I don't want all that "hanging" off my hunting rifle barrel. I guess I'm old school.....heavy on the "old" part! memtb
memtbOK so far I have this entire thread and can sum it up I think for myself:
- Heavy calibers need really good recoil pads. However, too soft of a pad can change how your eye relief is affected by recoil and get a eyebrow smiley.
- Muzzle brakes are really nice with good ear protection.
- Wear a shoulder added pad such as Past. This helps distribute the recoil over a wider area thus reducing felt recoil from one specific spot. https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=past+recoil&userItemsPerPage=48
- Drop bullet weight for general shooting and switch back to heavy hunting load when needed. Of course shoot it but you won't be beaten up by extended practice with lighter bullets.
- This is something I didn't see and assume? Not sure but shooting heavy calibers off the bench requires really good bench technique to minimize the felt recoil. You can truly improve the punishment level with adjusting your bags so you are more vertical at the bench etc. There is a lot of good read on how to set up a bench for heavy stuff to minimize how the actual recoil is transferred to the poor soul behind the butt. All it take is one poorly adjusted bag etc and you can wear the half moon smile in your eyebrow.
- This may sound odd but doubling up on the hearing protection to completely silence the bang can seem to reduce the recoil just from reduced perceived sound levels. I wear a Walker 34 dB plus good ear plugs. My 300WM sounds like an air rifle with this setup. Most muffs are down in the 22-24 dB range. These really shut down sound and with plugs really silence the bang. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...muffs-nrr-34db-and-shooting-glasses-kit-black
- Lead sleds are popular with heavy stuff but at some time you have to get feel of rifle and take the recoil all by yourself.
- Have someone else shoot it?
Some Solid info here, Thanks.OK so far I have this entire thread and can sum it up I think for myself:
Muddy
- Heavy calibers need really good recoil pads. However, too soft of a pad can change how your eye relief is affected by recoil and get a eyebrow smiley.
- Muzzle brakes are really nice with good ear protection.
- Wear a shoulder added pad such as Past. This helps distribute the recoil over a wider area thus reducing felt recoil from one specific spot. https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=past+recoil&userItemsPerPage=48
- Drop bullet weight for general shooting and switch back to heavy hunting load when needed. Of course shoot it but you won't be beaten up by extended practice with lighter bullets.
- This is something I didn't see and assume? Not sure but shooting heavy calibers off the bench requires really good bench technique to minimize the felt recoil. You can truly improve the punishment level with adjusting your bags so you are more vertical at the bench etc. There is a lot of good read on how to set up a bench for heavy stuff to minimize how the actual recoil is transferred to the poor soul behind the butt. All it take is one poorly adjusted bag etc and you can wear the half moon smile in your eyebrow.
- This may sound odd but doubling up on the hearing protection to completely silence the bang can seem to reduce the recoil just from reduced perceived sound levels. I wear a Walker 34 dB plus good ear plugs. My 300WM sounds like an air rifle with this setup. Most muffs are down in the 22-24 dB range. These really shut down sound and with plugs really silence the bang. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/4...muffs-nrr-34db-and-shooting-glasses-kit-black
- Lead sleds are popular with heavy stuff but at some time you have to get feel of rifle and take the recoil all by yourself.
- Have someone else shoot it?
