When my barell is fouled after cleaning or in the case of a new barrel it's broken in and fouled, I'll watch velocity and three shot group performance until I'm satisfied that the effort I've given to load development is justified. As has been said here by others, there is consideration due to component costs and barell wear. Never do I shoot more than a three-shot group which can be a challenge to our mere capability and the rifles ability and ever-changing conditions, although I know others do 10 or more.
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Realistic 10-shot groups
- Thread starter Hikinghunter
- Start date
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GSRetrievers
Well-Known Member
Hikinghunter
Well-Known Member
Interesting to see how folks respond based on their hunting needs. The whole long-range hunting thing is fairly new to me since I've moved across the country.
Back east where I grew up, 100 yards shots were the norm and 300 was long-range. To prepare for this, we just grabbed any old rifle and any old box of ammo, shot a few three-shot groups to sight in, and used the rest of the box to harvest a dozen or so deer over the next few years. It rarely failed to be effective.
Now I'm hunting high desert in a state where there's a lot of hunting pressure. I never get a shot under 300 yards, 500 is the norm, and being able to do 800 would definitely increase my success rate. It's a whole different ball game. Lucky for me, I live next to a gun range, so I get to shoot a lot more than I did back east, then come on here and ask all these questions
Back east where I grew up, 100 yards shots were the norm and 300 was long-range. To prepare for this, we just grabbed any old rifle and any old box of ammo, shot a few three-shot groups to sight in, and used the rest of the box to harvest a dozen or so deer over the next few years. It rarely failed to be effective.
Now I'm hunting high desert in a state where there's a lot of hunting pressure. I never get a shot under 300 yards, 500 is the norm, and being able to do 800 would definitely increase my success rate. It's a whole different ball game. Lucky for me, I live next to a gun range, so I get to shoot a lot more than I did back east, then come on here and ask all these questions
fseaman.js
Well-Known Member
This.I agree. No need to load 3 or 5 shots for groups if you are well past comfortable pressure for the cartridge.
I have wasted time and resources not following the pressure ladder first protocol.
fseaman.js
Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as too much practice.
There is such a thing as wear and tear on a rifle and barrel. Yes, of course consumables expense.
I believe those that are in the "push-back" crowed are asking why use the hunting rifle for large group shooting? Is that a thing done in the hunting process? Practice like you will do the endeavor. So, if it is a hunting rifle, practice with it like you were hunting.Reminder, I said there is no such thing as too much practice.
so
If all you have is a hunting rifle, gotta do what ya gotta do. Large group practice will have you very familiar with your rifle and ammo.
That said:
Practice with a 22LR does carry over to centerfire rifles. Then a little less wear and tear on the centerfire rifles and a lot less expense in ammo.
In this I practice what I preach. A range day working on zero and cold bore I am usually less than 20 rounds. After job done or between waiting for the rifle to go cold, 22LR. They are usually 10 round groups because Ruger rotary magazine holds 10 rounds. I can go through 200 rounds of 22LR.
Kmccord
Well-Known Member
A better test may be doing a cold bore shot for three days in a row and verify your POI is holding .5 MOA, it is a hunting rifle and that first shot is what you want. I have been told by a good friend, I need to quit trying to shoot tiny groups and focus on reading the wind and practice shooting for wind holds and not group size.
I have a few .22 LRs, including 10-22s and always have one with me at the range. It's what I shoot when cooling off barrel during load development, instead of barrel cooling system.That said:
Practice with a 22LR does carry over to centerfire rifles. Then a little less wear and tear on the centerfire rifles and a lot less expense in ammo.
In this I practice what I preach. A range day working on zero and cold bore I am usually less than 20 rounds. After job done or between waiting for the rifle to go cold, 22LR. They are usually 10 round groups because Ruger rotary magazine holds 10 rounds. I can go through 200 rounds of 22LR.
However, it's gopher shooting is when my buddies and I have a blast with it. We go through a brick or two in half a day.
abstewart66
Member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2012
- Messages
- 20
You might find this helpful: http://www.the-long-family.com/group_size_analysis.htm
Basically, for more than 4 shots in a group, you apply a correction factor to get MOA performance.
Basically, for more than 4 shots in a group, you apply a correction factor to get MOA performance.
Rifle barrels are good for 600-1200 rounds of their best accuracy, depending on the caliber and type of shooting. 308s are good for 3500-5000+, 7/08s up to 3500 rounds, 260 Rem will get their best in 1100-1400 rounds. Of course, what you call accurate varies from person to person.
Toward the end of their life,a barrel starts throwing unexplained flyers, things go down hill from there. What is usable barrel life varies from person to person.
Various powders are like shooting battery acid; they eat up a barrel for 9"-12" in front of the throat. Consult a Heat Index Chart for how hot your favorite powder burns.
How you conserve your barrel's life is up to you, and during load development, the longer the shot string, the hotter the barrel will get.
ON custom barrels such as Brux, Krieger, ABC, I will get in the ballpark in load development with two shot groups, verify with three shot groups, shoot multiple three-shot groups tweaking seating depth, primer changes, slight changes in neck tension. I am hunting for "bullets in the same bullet hole tuning". The goal is sub .300 groups and final tweaking to a single bullet hole group. This does not take long when you are loading at the rifle range.
By shooting three shot groups, I DECREASE the amount of time the wind reacts to my group, and this is a HUGE issue. Second, I am not shooting a super-heated barrel. Shooter fatigue is another huge issue, where eye strain and bench technique uniformity come into play.
Superheating the barrel increases the dia of the throat and the length of the throat, plus fire cracking, and land height wear. Given magazine constraints, many calibers can not stand a lot of throat ware before they are until they are shot out, or only useful as a single shot.
If I were shooting 10 shot groups, I would be going through barrels like crap through a goose. I have my own rifle range and reload at the rifle range out of a house I built. I have the ability to measure the dia and length of chamber throats. Teaching people to shoot 10 shot groups for load development is a very expensive proposition.
Bottom line, if you can shoot 4 three shot groups that measure .375 and less, your load is good.
For goodness sake, invest in two wind flags, your learning curve will be impressive. You are not going to start talking with a lisp or go limp-wristed if you put out two Wind flags. Learn to discount the pick ups and let ups in the wind in how it has a tremendous effect on the group size. Also, the wind direction switch can double your group size in a couple of seconds. Without a wind flag, you are shooting in the blind. On your target, draw arrows on the wind condition for that day, and speed. Drawing arrows on the target to indicate wind switches will allow you to see "flyers" that you may have missed.
Various shooting disciplines require long shot strings, there is no getting around the wear and tear that the longer shot strings require.
Toward the end of their life,a barrel starts throwing unexplained flyers, things go down hill from there. What is usable barrel life varies from person to person.
Various powders are like shooting battery acid; they eat up a barrel for 9"-12" in front of the throat. Consult a Heat Index Chart for how hot your favorite powder burns.
How you conserve your barrel's life is up to you, and during load development, the longer the shot string, the hotter the barrel will get.
ON custom barrels such as Brux, Krieger, ABC, I will get in the ballpark in load development with two shot groups, verify with three shot groups, shoot multiple three-shot groups tweaking seating depth, primer changes, slight changes in neck tension. I am hunting for "bullets in the same bullet hole tuning". The goal is sub .300 groups and final tweaking to a single bullet hole group. This does not take long when you are loading at the rifle range.
By shooting three shot groups, I DECREASE the amount of time the wind reacts to my group, and this is a HUGE issue. Second, I am not shooting a super-heated barrel. Shooter fatigue is another huge issue, where eye strain and bench technique uniformity come into play.
Superheating the barrel increases the dia of the throat and the length of the throat, plus fire cracking, and land height wear. Given magazine constraints, many calibers can not stand a lot of throat ware before they are until they are shot out, or only useful as a single shot.
If I were shooting 10 shot groups, I would be going through barrels like crap through a goose. I have my own rifle range and reload at the rifle range out of a house I built. I have the ability to measure the dia and length of chamber throats. Teaching people to shoot 10 shot groups for load development is a very expensive proposition.
Bottom line, if you can shoot 4 three shot groups that measure .375 and less, your load is good.
For goodness sake, invest in two wind flags, your learning curve will be impressive. You are not going to start talking with a lisp or go limp-wristed if you put out two Wind flags. Learn to discount the pick ups and let ups in the wind in how it has a tremendous effect on the group size. Also, the wind direction switch can double your group size in a couple of seconds. Without a wind flag, you are shooting in the blind. On your target, draw arrows on the wind condition for that day, and speed. Drawing arrows on the target to indicate wind switches will allow you to see "flyers" that you may have missed.
Various shooting disciplines require long shot strings, there is no getting around the wear and tear that the longer shot strings require.
RichCoyle
Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as too much practice.
There is such a thing as wear and tear on a rifle and barrel. Yes, of course consumables expense.
Reminder, I said there is no such thing as too much practice.
so
If all you have is a hunting rifle, gotta do what ya gotta do. Large group practice will have you very familiar with your rifle and ammo.
That said:
Practice with a 22LR does carry over to centerfire rifles. Then a little less wear and tear on the centerfire rifles and a lot less expense in ammo.
In this I practice what I preach. A range day working on zero and cold bore I am usually less than 20 rounds. After job done or between waiting for the rifle to go cold, 22LR. They are usually 10 round groups because Ruger rotary magazine holds 10 rounds. I can go through 200 rounds of 22LR.
A cheaper way is dry fire. The vast majority of my "shooting" is dry fire.
That's exactly what I do as noted in #12.
RichCoyle
Well-Known Member
May I brag a bit? I had a Weatherby six lug rebarreld with a Pac-Nor .257 chambered with a wildcat. First three shots were 3/8"! I fired three three shot groups and overlaid them. From outside to outside the nine shot "group" was 7/8"!!
marshalldodge
Active Member
The ten shot group has been pushed on us because of shooters who were cherry picking a 3 or 5 shot group.
Take this 5 shot group and you would be impressed, right?
Now let's look at the other three groups that I shot that day
Sometimes, everything lines up to give you a beautiful little group. If you spend a little time at the range, after a while you will learn to distrust what one group will give you.
In this case, the bullets I was shooting were not able to yield the consistency that I wanted. I like multiple 5 shot groups, but you may want to shoot a larger sample to make certain your load performs as needed.
Take this 5 shot group and you would be impressed, right?
Now let's look at the other three groups that I shot that day
Sometimes, everything lines up to give you a beautiful little group. If you spend a little time at the range, after a while you will learn to distrust what one group will give you.
In this case, the bullets I was shooting were not able to yield the consistency that I wanted. I like multiple 5 shot groups, but you may want to shoot a larger sample to make certain your load performs as needed.
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I don't even try to do any load development until the rifle settles in. I load minimum charge weights for my desired bullet and record velocity until it speeds up and stabilizes. For a hunting rifle I'll shoot three shot groups and let it cool back to ambient and repeat. One or two shots at game is typically all you will get, three covers that use case and shows you what to expect if you shoot and your buddy shoots and needs a follow-up. A competition rifle is another ball of string, treat it accordingly. Have a good time bring a few other rigs along to enjoy and over the course of a few trips to the range you'll get all of your brass formed. Then start in on load development.
Once I think I have something worth validating I shoot five three shot groups into the same point of aim at 100 yards again recording velocity and letting the rifle and ammunition cool to ambient between volleys. A bad three shot group isn't going to magic itself into a great five shot or ten shot group. Shooting to the same POA takes that into consideration and forms an aggregation of the data. Take your time and let it print what it prints. Assuming it holds up, and SD also holds up then go to cold bore mapping.
It's a hunting rifle so being certain of where the first shot is going to print is the most important. I am shooting and recording one cold bore shot at a time until I get to usually 10 cold bore shots on the same specific point of aim recording velocity. I'm not shooting one shot every X number of minutes I'm shooting an ambient temperature load in an ambient temperature rifle into the same POA. This again forms an aggregate 'group' for you to consider. Let it print what it prints, consider the shot 'you pulled' as carefully as you would a shot where POI is equal to POA. That might take thee or four or five trips to the range to accomplish. That doesn't matter, bring a buddy and a few other toys and have a good time.
Then keep checking that result against the target I shot the five three shot groups into. They may not jive for several reasons which I don't believe the OP is asking for, but it shows you a legit pattern of where that first bullet is 'grouping' compared to your other groups. If they jive awesome. If they don't new thread on here. I start stretching things out and building a true data set for that rifle out to as far as I believe it to be effective for the game I'm playing. If that's 500 yards I might accumulate data out to 600, no reason to go any further for hunting purposes. Even better if the weather has changed significantly over the course of the cold bore mapping. It will show you what that rifle prints in that condition and grow your data set and knowledge of what it Once I am happy with a rifle and load I bring it along and leave it sit and then shoot a shot leave it sit and fire another as your Maybe it loses velocity significantly as it gets colder, or in some cases it gains velocity.
Once I think I have something worth validating I shoot five three shot groups into the same point of aim at 100 yards again recording velocity and letting the rifle and ammunition cool to ambient between volleys. A bad three shot group isn't going to magic itself into a great five shot or ten shot group. Shooting to the same POA takes that into consideration and forms an aggregation of the data. Take your time and let it print what it prints. Assuming it holds up, and SD also holds up then go to cold bore mapping.
It's a hunting rifle so being certain of where the first shot is going to print is the most important. I am shooting and recording one cold bore shot at a time until I get to usually 10 cold bore shots on the same specific point of aim recording velocity. I'm not shooting one shot every X number of minutes I'm shooting an ambient temperature load in an ambient temperature rifle into the same POA. This again forms an aggregate 'group' for you to consider. Let it print what it prints, consider the shot 'you pulled' as carefully as you would a shot where POI is equal to POA. That might take thee or four or five trips to the range to accomplish. That doesn't matter, bring a buddy and a few other toys and have a good time.
Then keep checking that result against the target I shot the five three shot groups into. They may not jive for several reasons which I don't believe the OP is asking for, but it shows you a legit pattern of where that first bullet is 'grouping' compared to your other groups. If they jive awesome. If they don't new thread on here. I start stretching things out and building a true data set for that rifle out to as far as I believe it to be effective for the game I'm playing. If that's 500 yards I might accumulate data out to 600, no reason to go any further for hunting purposes. Even better if the weather has changed significantly over the course of the cold bore mapping. It will show you what that rifle prints in that condition and grow your data set and knowledge of what it Once I am happy with a rifle and load I bring it along and leave it sit and then shoot a shot leave it sit and fire another as your Maybe it loses velocity significantly as it gets colder, or in some cases it gains velocity.
