Realistic 10-shot groups

[Hikinghunter]

I've been doing 5-shot groups for load development. Once I get a 1/2 MOA 5-shot group, I call it good. However, I'm finding that the same load opens up to 1 moa when I do 10-shot groups. I allow several minutes between shots to cool down.

Wondering:

1. Do others experience the same sort of thing?

2. I'm shooting with custom barrels (proof and fierce). But these are lightweight, high-recoil hunting rifles. Should I be demanding a 1/2MOA 10-shot group, or am I chasing a rainbow trying to make that happen?

I see guys at my range shooting 20-shot 1/2 MOA groups, but they are shooting huge bull barrel .223's literally ratcheted down to an enormous rest. I can see how that would be pretty consistent . What's a realistic expectation for the rest of us?

 

[waspocrew]

1 MOA for 10 shot groups is acceptable for hunting in my mind. Take that 10 shot group out to 600 or further and if you're still holding 1 MOA, you're doing well.

Here's a recent 10 shot group from my 22 Creed:

 

[fseaman.js]

Realistic to achieve groups with X number of rounds depends on many factors but for most of us the number 1 seems to be barrel heating.

Don't trust anything said on internet forums.

A few years ago I did some tests. Cold to Hot barrel mapping. Using a Fluke to measure barrel temperature and spacing the shots as well as I could on time/temperature.

I did this with a couple 22LR and 2 centerfire rifles, 223 thin barrel and 300 WSM Heavy Palma each had a "pattern" that followed with barrel heating.

Maybe I'll find the notebook, maybe I won't. It's in a box somewhere. I can remember a few things. The PWS T3 Toggle 22LR was always 11 o'clock 1/4 MOA on first shot with Lapua Polar Biathalon and 3 o'clock 1/2 MOA on Blazer.

Different load, same rifle had a different "map".

Basic and nothin special, I'm just trying to put words to it:
1st shot "cold bore" was always in a predictable POI vs POA. Normal for all of us.
2nd to X, basically on POI vs POA and in the "window" for consistency. Where X is the number of shots at the pace normal for the task at hand. Hunting, PRS, Bench Rest, "lollipop" games, what ever.
X to how ever many, is where POI starts to disburse from POA and where it goes for a given temperature range. Say at 1 shot per minute you know that 2-5 are in the "window" but at 6 on the POI moves 1/4 MOA 9 o'clock, you can adjust POA 1/4 toward 3 o'clock until shot 9 then it moves down to 4 o'clock. (nor a real map).

So

If you want to make large round count groups, you would do well to understand what temperature your rifle likes. Pace your shots so that the rifle is always around that temperature. Understand your POI shift. The Heavy Varmint, Sendoro, Bull barrels have more mass to smooth out the heat window.

Probably clear as mud.

 

[PlumberEd]

I am always happy with a 1 MOA 10 shot group. Plenty good for big game hunting, IMHO. For my varmint rifles I like to see a 3/4 MOA 10 shot group.

 

[GraemeH]

Would it suit you to do 5 - 2 shot groups or 3 - 3 shot groups, starting with a cold barrel each time. Either at the same target, or overlaying them.

Then your barrel wouldn't get hotter testing groups than you expect it to get hunting.

Time will be a factor.

 

[41mag]

Realistically, if my 5 shot groups are holding within half MOA I am good to go. I am shooting hunting rifles and the times I have shot any of them more than 3 let alone 5 shots in a row has been very few and far between.

That said I will work up a load, as mentioned within a half to three quarters at 100 or 200yds, then run it through multiple times during weather changes to verify that it still shoots that same size group through out the year. If everything holds up I will use it for years or until I run out of components for it.

Problem is, at 75 degrees it might shoot awesome, at 50 or 90 degrees spread out like bird shot. I like to let the rifles and ammo acclimate to the temps then shoot a string. That gives me the best overall idea of what might happen during different times of the year. Granted I might not always be hunting game animals, but I might be reaching out across a pasture for a coyote or hog, and that group still matters.

 

[hpmag308]

Me myself always have done three shot groups at 100. If you're cutting holes you're good to go. 9.9 times out of ten you are not going to shoot over two or three shots in a row hunting. Any more than that you need to practice. Even hunting white tails here in the east some shots are running you won't be shooting ten times in a row.

 

[Starbuck]

Would it suit you to do 5 - 2 shot groups or 3 - 3 shot groups, starting with a cold barrel each time. Either at the same target, or overlaying them.

Then your barrel wouldn't get hotter testing groups than you expect it to get hunting.

Time will be a factor.

This is the method I use on light barrel, larger caliber, big game hunting rifles. I usually do 3+3+3 to get an idea of what a rifle/load is capable of, letting it cool between. Main reason is that I figure it's much closer to the actual use profile. I do try to fire them as quick as is practical while feeding from the magazine; it always amazes me how many people complain of poor feeding troubles while hunting.

To accommodate the time this takes I generally bring 4-5 guns to the range so I can keep on pulling the trigger.

To the OP question, 1moa for 10 consecutive shots is plenty good, and based off all my shooting and what I see at the range, is probably as good or better than what the majority of honest shooters are actually experiencing.

 

[Bang4theBuck]

On a hunting rifle, my personal acid test is more about where the rounds impact on a cold bore from one day to the next, with only 2 to 5 rounds being fired. If the rifle is intended to be fired with many consecutive shots, like for varmints or target shooting, I judge the groups over bigger strings, but only then.

 

[Aoudad 101]

1 MOA for 10 shot groups is acceptable for hunting in my mind. Take that 10 shot group out to 600 or further and if you're still holding 1 MOA, you're doing well.

Here's a recent 10 shot group from my 22 Creed:

View attachment 631800View attachment 631801Nice group!! It would of been alot smaller if you had a better spot to aim

 

[Quinncannon]

My personal standard for my rifles is a ten round group and must be at least one MOA. I work up a few different loads, start with three round groups, then five, then go to ten. The reason I started doing this, is because when shooting F-Class, strings of fire are 20 rounds for record. 20 minutes is the time allowed to shoot, so you know the barrel is going to be rather warm, so might as well see if the barrel will stand the heat during load development. All of my barrels are Kreigers in my bolt rifles. My rifles are mainly for target shooting, they have heavy barrels and are heavy rifles. With all of this wind expelled, I think for a hunting rifle, three shot sub MOA groups would be a realistic way to go.

Bottom target, shot at 300 yards, 12 round group, 1.75 inches, translates to .5833 MOA. Rifle, a custom built heavy barrel rifle, caliber .308, 175 grain SMK's, shot from a bag, in prone firing position. Time between each shot, less than one minute.

 

[FEENIX]

I've been doing 5-shot groups for load development. Once I get a 1/2 MOA 5-shot group, I call it good. However, I'm finding that the same load opens up to 1 moa when I do 10-shot groups. I allow several minutes between shots to cool down.

Wondering:

1. Do others experience the same sort of thing?

2. I'm shooting with custom barrels (proof and fierce). But these are lightweight, high-recoil hunting rifles. Should I be demanding a 1/2MOA 10-shot group, or am I chasing a rainbow trying to make that happen?

I see guys at my range shooting 20-shot 1/2 MOA groups, but they are shooting huge bull barrel .223's literally ratcheted down to an enormous rest. I can see how that would be pretty consistent . What's a realistic expectation for the rest of us?

I cut mine down to 3 shots. Once I am satisfied, I do cold bore shots, which require multiple cold bore range times. Ask yourself, how many shot opportunities do you get when hunting? Why complicate it unnecessarily? In my nearly 5 decades of hunting, I only have one opportunity for a second shot (931Y).

MG!

 

[Longrangers]

From doing both shooting competitions to long range hunting there are things I come to except. For competition I make sure gun is setup properly on bench and equipment matches. Next am I confident in my shooting ability. I don't use sleds or anything because realistically I have to shoot it. Test and work up load development. I will do ladder testing and shoot 300 yds then 600 then I stretch it out to a grand doing 6 shot groups. Once I find something I will try to get good conditions and clean my barrel prior shoot 2-3 foulers and then 10 shot group at a grand. As far as competition goes you strive for the best moa. Today you probably better be around 1/2moa or less capable for 10 shots in good conditions for 1000 yd benchest. For long range hunting I am not quite that particular. Yes I like to have a tack driver but I usually only per3-4 shot groups and like to see it at least 3/4 mos or less. In hunting situations most of the time I have seen you shoot 1-2 shots and game over. You also get into usually larger lightweight calibers and have to be able to manage recoil. JIMOP

 

[huntinfool18]

What's the point of a ten shot group? If your shooting half moa 5 shot groups, that's better then 95% of the people on this forum. 10 shot groups proves nothing and is just wasting components and barrel life. If it's taking you 10 shots in the field to be successful in the field, you should probably find a new hobby.