Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
You are correct and I believe it was the Germans who first looked at it in terms of application with projectiles in the mid 1800's if memory serves me correctly.
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Reading The Wind
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Shawn,
This is the second time that i've read your article on wind . I always enjoy reading your articles . I believe i'm going to print off your wind reading NOTES and take them with me to practice this weekend. Hunting seasons coming up and i've got a place picked out on the top of the mountain just above my dads hunting club
I can see his food plott. He makes fun of me with my computer stuff he says prove it, so I've got my kestrel 3500 and my nightforce software on my dell pc . He better hope he's not sitting in his shooting house and a slick head steps out into the food plott cause I'm gonna send a screamin 210 grain berger out of my 300rum her way
One question Shawn were can I get an ammunition holder like your dad has in the picture?
Bigbuck
This is the second time that i've read your article on wind . I always enjoy reading your articles . I believe i'm going to print off your wind reading NOTES and take them with me to practice this weekend. Hunting seasons coming up and i've got a place picked out on the top of the mountain just above my dads hunting club
I can see his food plott. He makes fun of me with my computer stuff he says prove it, so I've got my kestrel 3500 and my nightforce software on my dell pc . He better hope he's not sitting in his shooting house and a slick head steps out into the food plott cause I'm gonna send a screamin 210 grain berger out of my 300rum her way One question Shawn were can I get an ammunition holder like your dad has in the picture?
Bigbuck
Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
We get those from Blackhawk Industries.
Shawn,
I hope you're still receiving notice of the threads to your article as this posting is quite old. The one thing I find fascinating is in the time between now and the time you wrote the article, not much has changed, other than some equipment has become more technically advanced. I should add that reloading supplies are also a lot harder to come by at times also. I find your article very informative.
I am a newbie to long range hunting, having my first LRH rifle built last year. I have spent the past decade competitively trapshooting, winning a few State championships along the way. This new sport has started to consume me and I can't get enough articles and videos to fulfill my zeal for it. I want to give you a thousand yards of thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
I have a question? In perusing your website pictures I noticed that there are many pictures of competitive shoots. Where are these held and are they open to other folks? If they aren't open for other shooters, how about folks to watch them?
I live in southern Idaho and also have property in the Clearwater area I stay at several months a year. It appears to me, after perusing the pictures, that I am familiar with some of the areas they have been taken.
I hope you're still receiving notice of the threads to your article as this posting is quite old. The one thing I find fascinating is in the time between now and the time you wrote the article, not much has changed, other than some equipment has become more technically advanced. I should add that reloading supplies are also a lot harder to come by at times also. I find your article very informative.
I am a newbie to long range hunting, having my first LRH rifle built last year. I have spent the past decade competitively trapshooting, winning a few State championships along the way. This new sport has started to consume me and I can't get enough articles and videos to fulfill my zeal for it. I want to give you a thousand yards of thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
I have a question? In perusing your website pictures I noticed that there are many pictures of competitive shoots. Where are these held and are they open to other folks? If they aren't open for other shooters, how about folks to watch them?
I live in southern Idaho and also have property in the Clearwater area I stay at several months a year. It appears to me, after perusing the pictures, that I am familiar with some of the areas they have been taken.
Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
I still get them, thanks on the article. On the matches, check the westcoasttactical website they have a match listing thread and several were/are held in the Boise area. Where do you have property?
Good read. However I don't agree with him at all with the part of holding for a small wind correction and dialing for a big wind correction, and that if it's a big correction he will hold off the shot to see why he missed that badly.
Here's the exact quote
"If I need to fire a follow up shot because of poor windage and the correction is small I hold off, if it is a big correction I dial the correction (if the correction is big I am a lot more likely to stop and see what I have done wrong as long as I have not made a poor hit on the animal).
I do not like to hold off for wind as this is just not accurate enough for the shots and distances I want to work at."
IMO this is just flat out wrong. Regardless of what the hold is, if you saw the first impact regardless of amount of change, make the second shot as fast as you can before the conditions change and hold the amount you saw on the first miss. Why stop and let the conditions change??? now you have to start from scratch. Just hold the wind and read it, if it get's stronger hold a little more, if it gets weaker, hold a little less. But regardless, make the second shot as fast as you can in the conditions you made the first one.
I also don't agree with the last statement, that holding isn't accurate enough, really??? why is that? I hold all my wind, always have to distance out to 1000y. Again, IMO wind is too dynamic and changes too rapidly to dial it. By the time you dial it, it's probably changed enough to make your dial correction slightly off, so IMO it's actually less accurate than holding, which allows you to make the change for the conditions RIGHT NOW, not 30 seconds ago.
I'm a tactical shooter but this applies in both practices, whether target is an animal or otherwise.
.
Here's the exact quote
"If I need to fire a follow up shot because of poor windage and the correction is small I hold off, if it is a big correction I dial the correction (if the correction is big I am a lot more likely to stop and see what I have done wrong as long as I have not made a poor hit on the animal).
I do not like to hold off for wind as this is just not accurate enough for the shots and distances I want to work at."
IMO this is just flat out wrong. Regardless of what the hold is, if you saw the first impact regardless of amount of change, make the second shot as fast as you can before the conditions change and hold the amount you saw on the first miss. Why stop and let the conditions change??? now you have to start from scratch. Just hold the wind and read it, if it get's stronger hold a little more, if it gets weaker, hold a little less. But regardless, make the second shot as fast as you can in the conditions you made the first one.
I also don't agree with the last statement, that holding isn't accurate enough, really??? why is that? I hold all my wind, always have to distance out to 1000y. Again, IMO wind is too dynamic and changes too rapidly to dial it. By the time you dial it, it's probably changed enough to make your dial correction slightly off, so IMO it's actually less accurate than holding, which allows you to make the change for the conditions RIGHT NOW, not 30 seconds ago.
I'm a tactical shooter but this applies in both practices, whether target is an animal or otherwise.
.
Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
Interesting...... everyone has their opinions. I find it kind of unusual that someone would come out on their first post here to declare a technique "wrong". Techniques are what they are, some work for some people and some don't. If you like what you are doing then by all means keep doing it. I am willing to bet that I can use my techniques to place long range shots as well as anyone, so to declare them to be flatly "wrong" seems to be over stepping your bounds and knowledge. As the members of this site know I don't do internet ****ing matches so this will be my only comment on this.
Shawn has taught hundreds of people how to shoot long range. I personally know a a dozen who use his methods and make first round hits consistently past 1000 yards. The method he uses will teach you how to read the wind to make first round hits. Its not hard to shoot at a plate at 1000 yards see that u missed hold over and hit but if u dont stop and try to learn what you missed in your wind call you will continue to miss the first round. saturday my friend and I were shooting 1775 yards. full value wind was 10.25 moa and thats about what we had. how do you hold for that? Just my opinion but if you just wanna make a hit regardless on how many shots dont read the wind just shoot and keep holding over until you hit it. if you wanna learn to make first round hits listen to what shawn has to say. again he has taught a lot of people how to do it very very well. not a ****ing contest, and I'm not saying your way does not work for you, but I can tell you for sure that his method is not wrong.
I know it's my first post but I read that and I had to comment on it. No ****ing match wanted, just my opinion. I'm sure you'll agree that just because there's more than one way to skin a cat doesn't mean it's correct, so that argument is pretty much a moot IMO. I can slap the trigger all day long and eventually make hits, again that doesn't mean it's correct, can the argument be made that it's a different way of doing it, absolutely.
Maybe it's because you're LE and I'm former military, but I'm curious you really think that mixing how a shooter drives his weapon/scope in the wind is an effective way of shooting? The word consistency comes to my mind and I would hope that we can agree on this much, that an effective shooter is a consistent shooter.
FWIW, I thought the rest of your article was good, but IMO, and I say this with all due respect, your wind/scope management is way off.
Be safe.
Maybe it's because you're LE and I'm former military, but I'm curious you really think that mixing how a shooter drives his weapon/scope in the wind is an effective way of shooting? The word consistency comes to my mind and I would hope that we can agree on this much, that an effective shooter is a consistent shooter.
FWIW, I thought the rest of your article was good, but IMO, and I say this with all due respect, your wind/scope management is way off.
Be safe.
I don't understand your' question, how do I hold for that?? Do you mean do I have enough retcile?? otherwise... easy I look at my ballistic data for the conditions, and we'll assume here that the data is trued and that elevation adjustments are accurate, then hold my wind and make the shot. If I miss, hopefully I see the impact, make my hold correction and before everything changes, make the second shot.
Also just to let you guys know I shoot mil/mil system. So there' is no math involved, what I see in the reticle is what I hold should I miss. I hope that makes sense.
I'm not talking about making half a dozen shots and hoping to land one. My stick is not a area weapon system, it's a precision system, I strive for first round hits.
I dont doubt that it works, but I don't see how one can be effective when dialing in a wind condition that has already happened? Especilally when you stop to "wonder" why you missed. You say that I need to stop to learn why I missed?? I probably missed because the wind call I dialed is the wind that already happened. So now I want to make my second shot why the conditions I just evaluated are the same.
When I usually miss for wind I can tell it's a wind call, hence trying to make the second shot RIGHT NOW, before things change so much that I have to start reading the wind all over again.
It just seems that you're taking your time and working with old data. Why do that? If I'm taking a shot it's to "make" the shot, pausing to see why I missed isn't going to guarantee the next shot, it's just making me work for it all over again.
My point is to make the following shot immediately, you can't do that if dialing wind, well you can but it's not as fast/effective. In essence you're chasing the wind and are hoping that eventually the wind conditions match you're scope dial, that's when you guys make the hit. Sorry but that's backwards, it's not effective.
I dont know all there is to know, and It sounds like your methods work for you. I am not saying the way you do it is wrong. I was only saying that his methods definetly work. The way we practice is to read the wind, dial for the shot. Wait for my spotter to give me the go. Then I shoot. My spotter calls hit or a correction. If its a small correction (2 moa) or so, we practice using the reticle and making an immediate follow up shot. for example, if he says 1 minute left I will hold over 1 minute and shoot. Or if I spot my own shot and its close, I use the reticle and immediatly follow up. If he calls for a large correction, or I see a large correction is needed(say the opposite way of my call), I stop shooting because I am less interested in hitting it as I am in trying to learn how we missed the call so bad. When this happens we study it and often find something that explains our miss. We file that away and hopefully the next time we will catch it and make that first round hit. I do agree the quicker the follow up shot the better for making a hit. Have a good one.
shortpants
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2011
- Messages
- 619
Hey Chief, I see the point of your method as well as Shawn's. In your method there is one part I have a question about. When you brake the shot your rifle recoils moving your crosshairs from from your POA and then you see your impact. Let's say you see the impact 2 mils right. If your crosshairs moved from your POA and you call a 2 mil left correction I don't see how that could be accurate. If your shooting a rifle on a bench that ways 20lbs and is bagged then I see your point but under field conditions with a hunting weight rifle how does this work? Not saying it doesn't work for you just asking you to help me understand it. If your using a spotter that answers it but it didn't sound like you were.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
I've found dialing to be very precise and suited very well for shooting the wind at game animals. I generally monitor the wind movement for quite a while to find the lull or peak of the wind I'm wanting to shoot and watch how it moves over the terrain then dial for the condition I'm shooting. Holding wind just hasn't worked well for me, holding 6 or 8 MOA of takes the riticule of the animal and I loose the bracketing ability that I like and at some of the longer ranges holding is just not precise enough.
If I miss clean on my first shot there won't be a second one and we stop and figure out what went wrong, in the case I hit but am of I hold the same hold and take the spot on the reticule where the bullet hit and use that spot for the hold and send the second one fast for a TKO!!
If I miss clean on my first shot there won't be a second one and we stop and figure out what went wrong, in the case I hit but am of I hold the same hold and take the spot on the reticule where the bullet hit and use that spot for the hold and send the second one fast for a TKO!!
Hey shortpants,
I see what you're trying to say and ask. IMO, a solid position behind the rifle is a must to be able to control the rifle and see your impacts. with experience or training one learns how to setup behind the rifle in any position and still achieve a NPA. From there the proper fundamentals are implemented. Even after the trigger has just been pulled we go through the follow through. It's during the follow through that we reacquire our sights and refocus on the threat/target again.
If you built a good shooting position the rifle will recoil in such manner that it will allow you to see the impacts of your shots. It's then that you must hustle to correct and reengage if you miss. If possible it has to be done in the same conditions as the first shot. If you do this I can guarantee your hit's will be much higher.
Maybe this is clearer. Even after taking the shot, when done properly, the shooter will be able to see his hits and make the required corrections for the follow on shot. This technique is a standard technique in the trained tactical community. We have to see that first impact in order to adjust our fire and continue to provide effective shots on out targets. And our position is the key to this. If you don't setup right from the get go, you wont be able to see the hit and now you're behind the curve.
I hope this was a bit more clear. PM me if I confused you. Maybe we can speak on the phone and I can explain it better.
BTW, did i get all the parts to your question?
Sorry for grammar, getting tired.
I see what you're trying to say and ask. IMO, a solid position behind the rifle is a must to be able to control the rifle and see your impacts. with experience or training one learns how to setup behind the rifle in any position and still achieve a NPA. From there the proper fundamentals are implemented. Even after the trigger has just been pulled we go through the follow through. It's during the follow through that we reacquire our sights and refocus on the threat/target again.
If you built a good shooting position the rifle will recoil in such manner that it will allow you to see the impacts of your shots. It's then that you must hustle to correct and reengage if you miss. If possible it has to be done in the same conditions as the first shot. If you do this I can guarantee your hit's will be much higher.
Maybe this is clearer. Even after taking the shot, when done properly, the shooter will be able to see his hits and make the required corrections for the follow on shot. This technique is a standard technique in the trained tactical community. We have to see that first impact in order to adjust our fire and continue to provide effective shots on out targets. And our position is the key to this. If you don't setup right from the get go, you wont be able to see the hit and now you're behind the curve.
I hope this was a bit more clear. PM me if I confused you. Maybe we can speak on the phone and I can explain it better.
BTW, did i get all the parts to your question?
Sorry for grammar, getting tired.
