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Radical difference between Nosler 210 Gr Long Range and Hornady 208 Gr ELD-M

I thought the whole point of measuring the ogive was to measure the relationship between the bullets first point of contact and the lands.
The CBTO measurement doesn't account for length of the bullet, bearing surface, or boat tail, all of which will make bullets behave differently. CBTO is one thing in relation to determining the distance from ogive to the lands, but the engagement of two different types of ogives will be different. Other critical dimensions would be the placement of the bullet base relative to the case neck/shoulder junction and amount of bullet bearing surface in the neck. All of these impact the engagement of the bearing surface to the lands, which is what the simplified "CBTO" measurement is accomplishing.

The ELD-M has a secant ogive, the ABLR has a tangent ogive. The annoying but truthful answer is the two bullets are different, and need to be measured and worked up separately. The good news is tangent ogive bullets should be less sensitive to seating depth and easier to re-tune.

I'm not surprised at all that they're behaving as differently for Les as they are. Lot's of horizontal dispersion, so I would back down off the load a few grains, adjust seating depth, then work the powder back up, while keeping everything else (ie neck tension) constant to reduce the amount of changing variables.
 
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I understand that there are many differences as you mentioned, but regardless of bullet style, if I'm using a comparator to measure CBTO, I am still using the same reference of distance between ogive and lands. It's the same measurement. Different loads might not use the same amount of jump but it's still the same two points being measured. This is the problem I have understanding the statement. CBTO is CBTO no matter all the other variables you mention, bullet base, whether secant or tangent ogive, etc.
Again, unless I missing something, which is why I'm trying to have a complete understanding of this.
 
The comparator tool is used to establish a reference dimension so that you can reasonably measure seating depth along a common gage line, the inside diameter of the gage. It doesn't determine where the lands contact the ogive. You do that in another operation. There's a lot of ways to do this if you search here at LRH or elsewhere.
 
if I'm using a comparator to measure CBTO, I am still using the same reference of distance between ogive and lands.
You aren't really measuring what you think are with the tool. The ogive is the entire arc from tip to the bearing surface, not a specific point on that curve. So like Bob said, what we're really doing with the comparator is measuring from an arbitrary point on the ogive to the base of the cartridge.

The distance between the measurement point on the ogive and the actual beginning of the bearing surface is the same (within manufacturing tolerances) for bullets of the same type, but not across different weights/makes/models of bullets.

My 30 cal comparator insert measures between .280 and .293", neither of which are to the .300" bore or .308 grove measurements of a 30 cal barrel that the bearing surface of a bullet would actually engage with. So my CBTO measurements are based on how the oblong opening particular to my comparator insert sits on a particular bullet. The Hornady tool isn't exceptionally high quality either, I'd put money down that we would get fairly different measurements using two different inserts on the same bullets. Meaning my numbers only matter to me with my particular insert, and everyone else's would be different because of tolerances in the comparator.

If we could standardize at what point along the ogive to measure at, and get tools of high enough accuracy to measure it consistently, the CBTO itself could be a relevant data point. But what it's really doing now is describing the relative positions of several data points of a particular bullet in relation to the case.

Berger is awesome because they publish detailed information on the various measurements of their bullets. They've standardized the BTO measurement as the point at which the nose contacts the rifling. But my comparator isn't .300, so I can't measure exactly what they do unless I find a source for a (probably really expensive) precision version of a $30 Hornady tool that works fine for any given bullet. It just doesn't have much comparative value across multiple bullets of different types.

And even 0.300" for a comparator really isn't correct either; I don't have a print of the reamer used for my chamber, and with the number of rounds through these rifles who really knows where my lands truly start? And they move as you shoot. The tolerance stack here is to the point it's easier to just measure the gun for each different bullet, call that measurement a relative description of the bullet's relationship to the case and a potential window of jumps, and load on.
 
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My experience with ablr's is they like a jump and when I treated them like Bergers to find accuracy node, life got much easier with them. Fliers went away with longer jump as well. Heck, in 300wsm it shoots pretty much best really close to SAAMI COAL! In my .270 same thing, need running start it seems!
 
The simple answer to the OP's question is that as DIFFERENT OGIVES are measured, even if the measurement is the same, the nose profiles of the bullets are totally different. This changes the DISTANCE TO THE LANDS.
CBTO is NOT a measurement to the lands, but the relationship from case head to SAME point, by the hole in the gauge, on the bullet OGIVE at .xxx" diameter, this changes per bullet type/make/weight.
If all bullets had the same nose shape, then the distance as measured off the ogive would be the same, but they're not.
Hope this is clear as mud?

Cheers.
 
The simple answer to the OP's question is that as DIFFERENT OGIVES are measured, even if the measurement is the same, the nose profiles of the bullets are totally different. This changes the DISTANCE TO THE LANDS.
CBTO is NOT a measurement to the lands, but the relationship from case head to SAME point, by the hole in the gauge, on the bullet OGIVE at .xxx" diameter, this changes per bullet type/make/weight.
If all bullets had the same nose shape, then the distance as measured off the ogive would be the same, but they're not.
Hope this is clear as mud?

Cheers.
I liked it.
 
Jud96,
I agree with your entire statement with the exception of the part about "just because both rounds have the same CBTO doesn't mean they're the same distance to the lands"
Isn't this exactly what this means? Am I missing something? I thought the whole point of measuring the ogive was to measure the relationship between the bullets first point of contact and the lands.
Am I wrong about this?
Just to be clear, I am not being critical, I am sincerely confused about that statement and would like to understand what you mean.
Thanks,
Jim
As others have already described, it doesn't work like it seems like it should. Every time I try a new bullet I record my length to the lands using CBTO. I can tell you they might be close, but they aren't always the same. Every bullet will touch the lands at a different point. Even when using the same exact insert and the same exact caliber and same rifle. It's confusing, but treat every new load work up likes it's a new cartridge entirely.

I'll add, I checked some of my CBTO numbers. Some of my cartridges have the same CBTO with different bullets, and some vary .005+ from one bullet to the next. I use the same method to find my lands so I'm confident in my techniques. Loading two different bullets to the same CBTO will most likely get your relationship to the lands within .020 or so. However, it's important to tune your jump to the lands so as most know, if one jump works for one bullet it probably won't work for the next.
 
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It could be a lot of things. When switching a bullet you need to rework up the load. Just because both rounds have the same cartridge base to ogive doesn't mean they're the same distance to the lands. Also, using the same powder charge just because they're close in weight isn't the safest thing to do. I would drop down a couple grains, work up your powder charge and adjust seating depth. It's wise to work up a load for every new bullet you use.
 
The TL;DR version is the Hornady comparator insert measures a smaller diameter than the bore, so it will measure a different place on the ogive of different bullets. It does not directly measure where the bullet engages the lands.
 
I went digging just for kicks, when I ran 210gr ABLRs through my 300 RUM I ended up jumping them 0.072", which coincidentally worked out the book COL of 3.600" Never went past initial seating depth testing because I got some Berger 210s finally.

Les, you originally said 3.920" on the comparator? I'm thinking you didn't zero out the 1.xxx" for the comparator body/ insert to take that out of the measurement. Not that it matters because as long as you use your tools it won't change your final answer to not zero. Just now that I'm looking at my numbers that does seem about a full inch longer than where the ballpark is for 300WM. I'm at 2.915" BTO to set a 300 RUM at 3.600".
 
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I went digging just for kicks, when I ran 210gr ABLRs through my 300 RUM I ended up jumping them 0.720", which coincidentally worked out the book COL of 3.600" Never went past initial seating depth testing because I got some Berger 210s finally.

Les, you originally said 3.920" on the comparator? I'm thinking you didn't zero out the 1.xxx" for the comparator body/ insert to take that out of the measurement. Not that it matters because as long as you use your tools it won't change your final answer to not zero. Just now that I'm looking at my numbers that does seem about a full inch longer than where the ballpark is for 300WM. I'm at 2.915" BTO to set a 300 RUM at 3.600".
You are correct. I am just using the measurement with the comparator attached. The actual length from the base to the tip is 3.660. So, base to ogive would probably be about where you are at.

I am thinking of setting up a new seating depth for these ABLR's using the exact same load of 77.5 grains of H-1000. The rounds I previously shot showed no pressure signs. I am hoping this is a seating depth issue. From what everyone has indicated so far, these things use a lot of jump. I don't want to shoot half a box to find the formula. So I may just start at .070 off the lands. I assume (and hope) you meant .072 and not .720. If they need a 3/4" jump, I might as well not even try. Lol. I read elsewhere that someone used a similar load with these ABLR's and had to go all the way back to .100 before they started to group. That is a lot. All I want is an accurate load with repeatable components. If I cannot get Hornady's, but can get ABLR's - and if I can get them to shoot - I will be happy enough.
 
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