PSE TAC 15 crossbow - first range outing

[BryanLitz]

Len,

I'm very impressed with the accuracy of that crossbow. I've shot archery all my life and knew that crossbows were more 'snappy' than normal bows, but ****.

Regarding ballistics, you can use a standard ballistics program like you use for bullets. The Berger program:
Berger Bullets

is a good, simple program to use for this. You will have to know the weight of the entire arrow (I thought they were called 'bolts'?) in grains. For caliber, use the diameter of the shaft, in inches. Ultimately, you will have to determine BC by trial and error based on your drop data, but a good place to start is to enter a G1 BC that results in a form factor of around 1.1 or 1.2. That should be close.

If you can set up two chronographs and measure the velocity at two distances, then you can derive a BC that way. Once you have the BC of the arrows/bolts, everything else about the program works the same way.

Note that if the crossbow gets out of 'tune' at all, resulting in the arrows flying with any amount of yaw, that the BC will be degraded quite a bit. You mentioned a 'paper test' in your first post, which I assume has something to do with tuning the pitch/yaw out of the crossbow. It would be a good idea to check once in a while to make sure it stays in tune, or else your ballistics will degrade significantly.

I also think it's a good idea to do some serious verification shooting with whatever broadhead you plan to work with. Even if you have to destroy a couple heads to get the drop fully verified, it's probably worth it to know how the arrows will fly 'when it counts'.

Out of curiosity, how much does something like that cost? Looks like a bunch of fun! I wonder what the max effective range is, based on hitting an 8" vital zone with lethal energy? My guess would be up to 300 yards? You'd need a lot of elevation in the scope!

Have fun,
-Bryan

 

[Len Backus]

Bryan, thanks for the help.

(I thought they were called 'bolts'?)

Since they are 26 inches long PSE calls them arrows.

Note that if the crossbow gets out of 'tune' at all, resulting in the arrows flying with any amount of yaw, that the BC will be degraded quite a bit. You mentioned a 'paper test' in your first post, which I assume has something to do with tuning the pitch/yaw out of the crossbow. It would be a good idea to check once in a while to make sure it stays in tune, or else your ballistics will degrade significantly.

I did check it when I started but I have meant to check it more carefully right about now. I suspect I may have some yaw because it seems to me the wind drift may be more than what is predicted by my rough BC calcs based on drop. As with rifles, max kill distance will depend on wind reading skills more than any other singe factor.more

Out of curiosity, how much does something like that cost? Looks like a bunch of fun!

Funny you should ask!

LRH Gear Shop is now a PSE TAC 15 crossbow dealer!

PSE requires all dealers to sell right at MSRP which I am. But I am offering 6 additonal free arrows (value of $90).

The prices are TAC 15 and TAC 10 $1299 (utilizes your AR15 lower)

And the TAC 15i and TAC 10i $1599 (comes with its own lower)

About as much as a higher end factory rifle -- and way more fun.

 

[Chas1]

Len your last post got me to wondering, would the TAC 15 be considered a top of the line factory crossbow? I'm thinking yes. If so is there such a thing as a custom crossbow and how would cost compare. Maybe a dumb question but, I am not familar with the sport but, the more I read the more interesting it's becoming.

 

[Len Backus]

Yes, it is top of the line. I don't know if there are custom crossbows out there.

 

[Chas1]

Len, I went and did a little research and found a custom crossbow outfit...you got to check out the link. Talk about pricey at £8000 that's $13,000 at 1.629 exchange rate as of today. I'm sure they are fine works of art but, just not my cup of tea. Anyway back on topic. It looks like you have a winner and suspect you will sell quite a few of them.

Talisman Crossbows

 

[J E Custom]

Len your last post got me to wondering, would the TAC 15 be considered a top of the line factory crossbow? I'm thinking yes. If so is there such a thing as a custom crossbow and how would cost compare. Maybe a dumb question but, I am not familar with the sport but, the more I read the more interesting it's becoming.

I just got mine today(Tac 15) and It is a fine piece of machinery !!!

Well designed,well made And looks good.

It is all black and the arrows are all black including the Fletch and nocks.I will change the Fletch
to something brighter for hunting because you cant use the lumanocks because of loading at
release.

I have a AR lower with a custom trigger set at 2 lbs and it works great.

It is not as heavy as I though it would be or as loud.

I was realy down when I realized I could no longer draw a compound Bow and was hesitant
about going to a cross bow until I shot mine today.

As Len said " this thing is fun" and If you want a cross bow this is the one.

It puts the "long range" into bow hunting and that's what everyone on this site likes.

Give Len a call and get one of these things. You won't be sorry.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Chas1]

JE, congratulations on getting yours, you sound pretty excited so let the good time roll.

 

[J E Custom]

JE, congratulations on getting yours, you sound pretty excited so let the good time roll.

Yes I am excited and the reason is simple it is the closest thing to a compound bow
that has come along.

The problem in the past with crossbows was range and energy.

They all shot very short and light "Bolts" limiting effective range on game.

Even when I was able to shoot a crossbow in some states without a handicap
permit I chose not to because of there inadequacies compared to the compound
bows.

The only advantage was less practice required to shoot them (Less practice Is
not good IMO).

Like everything that is better controversy allways follows, just like the pioneers
of Long range shooting That had to convince the naysayers.

I have already heard some comments when mentioning the new crossbows performance
and it doesn't bother me because of the sources.

The fact that crossbow technology has improved to this point is the reason that some
states have made it leagle to use without the special permit.

I do not think that any crossbow is better than a quality compound bow in the hands of
a good shooter ,just almost as good.

Any weapon has it's limitations and all hunters should know it's limitations and theirs.

Just an opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[Chas1]

The fact that crossbow technology has improved to this point is the reason that some states have made it leagle to use without the special permit.

J E, help me out as I'm missing the connection and I know it's my lack of understanding. I would think with crossbow technology comes with it a more deadly weapon and if so I would think some states would be trying to make it more difficult to get a permit rather than not needing one???

 

[J E Custom]

J E, help me out as I'm missing the connection and I know it's my lack of understanding. I would think with crossbow technology comes with it a more deadly weapon and if so I would think some states would be trying to make it more difficult to get a permit rather than not needing one???

Chas ;
It's the big bullet with high Ballistic coefficients against the smaller/lighter bullet with not as
high Ballistic Coefficients.

The longer and heaver an arrow is the better the range and remaining energy.

An Arrow kills with a combination of energy and momentum and in the past the crossbow
bolts were light,short and lost velocity (Energy and momentum much quicker than full size
arrows. they were also much less stable because of there length.

This was the reason they were not allowed for big game except for handicapped people
that would otherwise not be able to hunt.

The new crossbows are better than they ever were and if you look at the new breed of
crossbows they are almost just a compound that is mechanically held.

As I have stated on other post I shot 800 to a 1000 grain arrows @ 90+ pounds and there
wasn't many things that would stop these arrows because of the weight and momentum.

So this crossbow while being very good still cant match my old shooting system except in
trajectory (It is flatter shooting to certain distances).

I have been bow shooting since the first compound (The Allen Compound that is patented)
and there have been many controversies about technology improvements making it less of a
sport and to easy. The re curve was the first major improvement in the bow, then came the
compound and its technology, then release aids, and carbon fiber arrows and ETC.

But the bow is still not as deadly at longer ranges as the rifle so where do we stop.

I still say that if a weapon is capable of humanely killing big game and is legal then there
should be no special season for a certain weapon system, even though I personally would
not like to bow hunt on public land during gun season but it would still be my choice.

Like every thing else there are personal preferences on every issues and this is just my opinion.

It is a good question though and I don't know the answer.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Chas1]

J E, thanks for responding. I guess it is kinda hard trying to figure out why some regs are put in place and/or removed.

 

[Bernie2525]

UPDATE - I got back at the range this afternoon as the weather improved. There was still some crosswind but not much. Mostly a headwind as to direction.

I shot groups at 40, 50 and 60 yards. From a bench with front bag, rear unsupported. Notice that only one of the groups had any significant vertical. That one shot at 60 yards was a shocker. Imagine being shocked by an extra, measly ONE INCH of vertical with an arrow at 60 yards.

After I get my drops worked out and get into practice mode, I will have to shoot at separate dots for ranges under 70 yards so I don't waste arrows by hitting them in a tight group. Can you even imagine that kind of a problem in archery practice at those distances?

The PSE TAC 15 crossbow is everything that I hoped for in accuracy potential. I will install an anti-cant scope level and an ACI (for uphill/downhill) before I go out again. Since I used various aiming points nothing can be told about drop by viewing these photos. I'll summarize the drop from 20 out to 100 yards at some future point in my testing.

I'll be consulting with Bryan Litz, the Berger Bullets' ballistician, about how to go about estimating a BC from my drops and from chronographed velocity changes. Then I can play around with drop tables generated by a ballistics program in order to correct for altitude and temperature out in the mountains this fall.

I know it sounds crazy to be talking about ballistics programs when shooting an arrow but this PSE TAC 15 is unbelievable. I hope to try for a deer out to 100 yards if the drops and accuracy testing continues to go well as I stretch the target distances.

Just ordered mine - been deer hunting with Ten Point for years. Arrows are expensive 6 for $90. The scope PSE recommends is an Accuscope 3x9 - usually used on air rifles. Layerd bag target like one above looks good - Morrell has a new 400/ fps bag target / wonder if you could pull these arrows out of a block target. Can not wait to start shooting - never been fond of mechinical broadheads / but with this bow - only option! Now need to decide on what scope - with no noise and wind I am guessing I can kill up to 40 plus yds with this cross bow.

 

[Chas1]

Bernie2525, Congratulations. Once you get it let us know how you like it. Enjoy.

 

[Len Backus]

Bernie, have fun, they are really amazing. If yo come up with a better choice of scope let us know. I want a csope that will work out to aobut 110- yards. The Accuscope will do that with its mildot reticle. It has 6 above and 6 below. At 3 power that is 36 mils.

The recoil of a crossbow is more like an airgun so you need one that will withstand that - kind of a reverse recoil. PSE tells me some otherwise good scopes were trashed if they weren't airgun scopes.

The bag target you see in my pix above was not good enough for the velocity so I have switched to the Morrell. Currently using their Bone Collector Outdoor Range. The 400 FPS model is what I also have on order.

Arrows are expensive 6 for $90.

Not really so expensive.

I am a PSE Crossbow dealer now, as I said in my first post.

Free - 6 arrows with the purchase of a TAC series crossbow at the LRH Gear Shop