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Proof Barrels And Shermans.....WOW !
- Thread starter Wedgy
- Start date
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Here in lies the problem with these types of threads, somebody friends cousins brothers sister said.
Its the same way with bullet threads.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Slug the barrel. Not a big deal to check, you can at least see if you have tight or loose spots, a reamer bushing helps check bore diameter.
PNWdude67
Well-Known Member
This is interesting, we have some recent experience with a few different cartridges and top shelf barrel makers. 6.5 and 6 Creedmoor, 6.5x47, 6 BRA, 22 Wylde, 6.5 and 7 Sherman short. Barrels: proof steel and carbon fiber, Bartlien steel and carbon fiber, bench mark steel and carbon fiber, and Hawk Hill steel. We generally chamber barrels in pairs. Two 7 SS, two 6.5x47 etc. and run them in the team matches we shoot. I develop loads for both barrels and the hope is to get one load that shoots the same velocity average in both guns. So, some would say this is a fools errand! Having done this over 20 times now, it has generally worked out that one load shoots within 10 fps average velocity of the other and that's close enough for what we do. A couple times we have one that needs a .3 tenths more powder to keep up and still shoots bugholes with the other barrel. We have 8 carbon fiber barrels chambered in proof, 6 Sherman shorts and two 6.5x47, 8 stainless proof barrels and just as many of the other manufactures mentioned. 4 of the five receivers I have are wearing proof barrels right now and they shoot well. Last weekend we ran two guns one with a stainless proof 6.5x47 chamber and it shot the same 140 RDF load with my son's gun with a hawk hill 6.5x47 chambered barrel soI loaded 400 rounds for the weekend exactly the same. Dope was identical to 1600 yards and we did very well at the match. What I think happens with ANY chamber and barrel combination is YOUR MENU MAY VARY! We have seen one "fast"proof and one "slow" proof, a couple "slow" bartliens. As the barrels "broke in" 100-200 rounds fast barrels did not speed up as much as the slow ones. Not sure why but that's convenient. Every "high end" barrel we have had chambered the last 5 years has been fairly simple to get sub 1/2 MOA for the life of the barrel and all have shot their "gram post" worthy bug hole groups. Eventually we will get a lemon, but so far so good with well over 30 different barrels. We do have a fantastic chamber smith doing most of the work. So based, on my limited experience of 30 or so barrels and 10 chambered in Sherman Shorts, I say with confidence, the Sherman Short cartridge is NOT the problem. I also have a theory that when a customer with limited experience reads the stuff posted on FB or this forum or snipers hide they get an unrealistic expectation of what their barrel will do form the start. When pushing a cartridge to the pressure limit you will see a greater variance in all parameters. We settle with the moderate pressure loads in ALL our cartridges and shoot the hell out of them. My 7SS loads run 190s at 2700-2750 fps out of 22"-24" barrels. Can we get 2900 out of them with RL 26? Yes, but why?? Here's why we don't push the pressure limits. Our 6.5x47 load last weekend ran 2765 fps with 140 RDF from 25" barrels and sub MOA at 1600 yards. We can drop the magazine in a bucket of water, load and make ready and shoot a stage with NO pressure spikes. Same can be done with the loads for our Shermans. All my best match ready Sherman loads are 150-200 FPS below max and HAMMER!! All my other chambering loads are below max velocity too. Maybe that's why ALL my proof barrels and other barrels consistently perform well?? When we push the limits of velocity performance we push the limits of repeatable consistent performance as well because all components of the rifle system are tested to the limit, including the shooter, with high pressure loads. Their were 40 teams, 80 shooters at the field match last weekend, 160 rounds per gun, we were in 3 rd place after Saturday and finished in 6th. None of the teams finishing in the top 10 ran higher pressure loads than we did. The speed chasers were all in the bottom 30. 
It's always been that way, and always will be...
and this video is only partly why.
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This thread has probably created worry for many proof CF owners. I know it caused me some pause. I have a 7mm Proof CF Sendero sitting at the GS awaiting chambering. I talked to Greg this morning and relayed what I was seeing here. He basically said there is no way to fully check the barrel for tight spots through the entire bore. At least he did not have the instruments to fully check end to end. He also mentioned that a few of his clients were expressing some similar concern with this proclaimed issue. I was almost at the point of just ordering a Bartlein CF barrel. I'm not a speed freak and do not shoot ELR at this point. I want a consistent accurate barrel that will out shoot me. I think I'm sticking with the proof and shoot the heck out of it.
I bought this barrel as is new..not chambered..just wondering if it's a tight barrel... 6.5 20"...as my 6.5 26" is too front heavy for my likes...especially packing on a mtn side.....26" shoots well...but I like a weight even rifle...
A tight barrel in my opinion won't be an issue within reason if its uniform from end to end. To many people go off of
" PET" loads for a certain caliber instead of working up loads for each individual barrel. You can find out alot in your load development in the first 100 rounds about what powder or primer it likes without a
"PET" load.
Like I said in an earlier post Kreiger makes .299 and .300 bore 30 cals and .236 and .237 6mm barrels.
I believe at one time Brux and Rock Creek only made .236 bore 6mms.
" PET" loads for a certain caliber instead of working up loads for each individual barrel. You can find out alot in your load development in the first 100 rounds about what powder or primer it likes without a
"PET" load.
Like I said in an earlier post Kreiger makes .299 and .300 bore 30 cals and .236 and .237 6mm barrels.
I believe at one time Brux and Rock Creek only made .236 bore 6mms.
I don't mind using something other than a Proof. There's lots of high quality barrel blanks to choose from. My 7SS has a 22" K&P and my 338SS is a 19" Benchmark. Both shoot extremely well.
Actually, this weekend I shot what will probably be the best group of my lifetime with my 7SS. I didn't have a set of calipers but it looked to be just over an inch at 1005 yards. It's shooting the 190gr Bergers at 2815fps. It's a max load that I'm thinking about backing down simply for component life (since realistically/pragmatically I won't miss 50-100fps) but the performance is hard to argue with.
Actually, this weekend I shot what will probably be the best group of my lifetime with my 7SS. I didn't have a set of calipers but it looked to be just over an inch at 1005 yards. It's shooting the 190gr Bergers at 2815fps. It's a max load that I'm thinking about backing down simply for component life (since realistically/pragmatically I won't miss 50-100fps) but the performance is hard to argue with.
Fantastic info from great experience.This is interesting, we have some recent experience with a few different cartridges and top shelf barrel makers. 6.5 and 6 Creedmoor, 6.5x47, 6 BRA, 22 Wylde, 6.5 and 7 Sherman short. Barrels: proof steel and carbon fiber, Bartlien steel and carbon fiber, bench mark steel and carbon fiber, and Hawk Hill steel. We generally chamber barrels in pairs. Two 7 SS, two 6.5x47 etc. and run them in the team matches we shoot. I develop loads for both barrels and the hope is to get one load that shoots the same velocity average in both guns. So, some would say this is a fools errand! Having done this over 20 times now, it has generally worked out that one load shoots within 10 fps average velocity of the other and that's close enough for what we do. A couple times we have one that needs a .3 tenths more powder to keep up and still shoots bugholes with the other barrel. We have 8 carbon fiber barrels chambered in proof, 6 Sherman shorts and two 6.5x47, 8 stainless proof barrels and just as many of the other manufactures mentioned. 4 of the five receivers I have are wearing proof barrels right now and they shoot well. Last weekend we ran two guns one with a stainless proof 6.5x47 chamber and it shot the same 140 RDF load with my son's gun with a hawk hill 6.5x47 chambered barrel soI loaded 400 rounds for the weekend exactly the same. Dope was identical to 1600 yards and we did very well at the match. What I think happens with ANY chamber and barrel combination is YOUR MENU MAY VARY! We have seen one "fast"proof and one "slow" proof, a couple "slow" bartliens. As the barrels "broke in" 100-200 rounds fast barrels did not speed up as much as the slow ones. Not sure why but that's convenient. Every "high end" barrel we have had chambered the last 5 years has been fairly simple to get sub 1/2 MOA for the life of the barrel and all have shot their "gram post" worthy bug hole groups. Eventually we will get a lemon, but so far so good with well over 30 different barrels. We do have a fantastic chamber smith doing most of the work. So based, on my limited experience of 30 or so barrels and 10 chambered in Sherman Shorts, I say with confidence, the Sherman Short cartridge is NOT the problem. I also have a theory that when a customer with limited experience reads the stuff posted on FB or this forum or snipers hide they get an unrealistic expectation of what their barrel will do form the start. When pushing a cartridge to the pressure limit you will see a greater variance in all parameters. We settle with the moderate pressure loads in ALL our cartridges and shoot the hell out of them. My 7SS loads run 190s at 2700-2750 fps out of 22"-24" barrels. Can we get 2900 out of them with RL 26? Yes, but why?? Here's why we don't push the pressure limits. Our 6.5x47 load last weekend ran 2765 fps with 140 RDF from 25" barrels and sub MOA at 1600 yards. We can drop the magazine in a bucket of water, load and make ready and shoot a stage with NO pressure spikes. Same can be done with the loads for our Shermans. All my best match ready Sherman loads are 150-200 FPS below max and HAMMER!! All my other chambering loads are below max velocity too. Maybe that's why ALL my proof barrels and other barrels consistently perform well?? When we push the limits of velocity performance we push the limits of repeatable consistent performance as well because all components of the rifle system are tested to the limit, including the shooter, with high pressure loads. Their were 40 teams, 80 shooters at the field match last weekend, 160 rounds per gun, we were in 3 rd place after Saturday and finished in 6th. None of the teams finishing in the top 10 ran higher pressure loads than we did. The speed chasers were all in the bottom 30.
I've watched two GS's scope and or slug Proof CF barrels, they were not impressed. Later when they tested them they seemed disappointed that they shot so well.This was many years ago. Now both use them for hunting.
GS's were hesitant with Titanium actions, not so much now. When CF barrels began many were convinced it was a fad.
Bingo, tight bores do not necessarily reduce MV
One thing I forgot to mention about the 30 cal. barrel that I posted about im sure some thought that the lapping was the problem. I can assure it wasn't I personally lapped that barrel just like probably a 1,000 barrels I lapped previous and others for myself and the rest did like any other barrel ive shot in speed up.
It never fouled any different than any other properly lapped barrel just flat weird how it acted.
It never fouled any different than any other properly lapped barrel just flat weird how it acted.
Curious if Bartlein replaced the barrel?
