Proof Barrels And Shermans.....WOW !

[RH300UM]

Theres always 3 parts to a story. Each one of the 2 parties involved make up 2 parts. The truth makes up the 3rd part.
Right now we only have 1 side of the story. I'm in no way implying or stating that truth is not being told by 1 side that is present here on this problem. It's been my experience and observation that when both parties involved are present to give both of their inputs the truth lies somewhat in the middle.
We all have our experiences to base our opinions on. Some more than others.
I have tried a Sherman and formed my opinion.
I have used Proof barrels and formed my opinion.
I'm full of experienced opinions.
I'm constantly surprised by my lack of knowledge that formed my opinions.
On this issue I would like to have input from proof in order for me to gain knowledge on the stated issue.

 

[jpfrog]

Thank you, everyone. For the last few mornings I have started reading some of this thread with my morning coffee, then paused because it hurt my head, then resumed while on the toilet. Big help keeping me entertained!

And yes, I own two Shermans (one proof and one on another carbon barrel) and an Ackley that's chambered on a proof. I am happy and enjoy the cartridges, and the barrels, even if the velocities vary. I use them for hunting and develop the loads to meet what the barrel, powder, and bullet are capable of doing. Sometimes it's slower than I hoped and sometimes it's faster. Funny- I also ran into the same thing with SAAMI spec chambers running steel barrels before I got the carbon and wildcat bugs.

 

[L.Sherm]

I'm not aware of any cut rifle barrel maker who stress relieves after there cut except maybe cyro, and there's alot of beliefs on both sides of that as well.
But to say cut rifle barrel makers " control" there heat treat is wrong unless they do it in house which im not aware any the cut rifle barrels do. Any barrel maker is up to the mercy steel bar stock maker for heat treat after the bar stock is made,but all bar stock for making barrels is not the same in composition or there heat treat process

 

[buckbrush]

If there was solid and consistent data/performance data for these wildcats there wouldn't be such polarizing contention when pressure and velocity discussions surface.

Rather, concerns over pressure and not being able to obtain advertised velocities result in banning from FB pages and pile-ons from those who experience acute post purchase rationalization. People seem to have been conditioned to believe that traditional pressure signs are to be ignored when shooting these wildcats. Many claims of "you need to be an experienced wildcatter" to make these work are tossed around. This thought process doesn't align with even rudimentary physics lessons, but whatever.

Sherman wildcats should get some credit for changing the paradigm about cartridge design…slightly. It's been the trend in the market for the last 15-ish years. If it weren't for people Iike this guy, we'd all still be shooting 308s and 30-06s. But "know your limitations".

The designer's credibility is suspect to me and others. No published load data except for a spreadsheet created by someone who isn't pushing/drawing these cartridges. And there certainly isn't pressure data on this spreadsheet. It's subjective "bolt lift", "ejector swipe" notes. If primer pockets are loose, bolts locked shut, etc. after hitting advertised velocities, the blame game begins…as previously stated. Or, temper tantrum, finger pointing behavior in public forums ensues. Why not assume some professional behavior and just stop recommending Proof barrels? Even if all of the "investigative research" that's has been performed suggest that there is indeed some voodoo that occurs when a Sherman reamer touches Proof steel.

Rant off. Toodles.

 

[muzzletalk]

You assume very much but are not reading my post, at a minimum trying to force my words out of context. I am a lifelong shooter and reloader, I shoot to a mile and enjoy it very, very much. I enjoy the shooting community at large and share as much experience as I can...

Anybody using a Weatherby cartridge, 6.5 or 7 SAUM, or other SAAMI standardized cartridge has a LOT more guidance and reliable reloading data available to them. Of course these cartridges are chosen for their performance within their respective action sizes. The Sherman cartridges are doing the same thing and I don't have ANY problem with the cartridge or design. The performance of the Sherman mags is nothing short of spectacular and I don't begrudge an educated individual for taking advantage.

I do follow the Sherman crowd online and am very much aware of the performance gained, just as with the Ackley Improved cartridges. The concept of wildcats is nothing new and has always been to gain a performance edge...

I am not speaking of an online group of people I am associated with, I am speaking of several people that I converse with in the real world face to face who are of the habit of touting their Sherman mags and velocities. I can tell you that I speak out of concern for their well being as it is good for nobody that a fellow shooter is injured after pushing their system (action, barrel, bullets, primers, brass) beyond its safe performance levels. The internet is very good at showing the shiny new extreme speed cartridge, but it is not very good at sharing that same information with a healthy dose of caution.

Couple the above newfound excitement of a shooter with the tight bore of the Proof and now you have a frustrated shooter reading online that his performance is subpar without the experience or judgement to know when to step away and look for sage advice. Frankly the loads posted on forums and social media are often times dangerous and obviously over pressure. The perfect storm of inexperienced reloaders with a shortage of components and an overeager fountain of information from varying degrees of knowledge is a situation I am seeing more and more of.

Now add in the liability that Proof is going to incur if they don't take a step back. My guess is that they are well aware that a great many of the issues related to the Sherman Magnum chamberings is not an issue with the barrel, chambering, or brass but a problem of PRESSURES. Pressures exacerbated by the perfect storm I mentioned above, but they are most likely only hearing about it from ONE SPECIFIC GROUP. Therfore it is my hypothesis that the group has a very large percentage of new reloaders who are very excited to experience the performance levels but don't know when to stop.

My thoughts are not a condemnation of the Sherman Mags, nor of Proof. My sense is telling me it is a situation of unrealistic expectations coupled with quality control issues.

I wanted to reply to this last night, however, it appears the servers were having some issues and probably in everyone's favor since I'll nutshell my comments.

I wanted to apologize for running some assumptions. Your comments hit me as generalized, however, now that you have added context, I can understand your concern. Furthermore, I agree with you. When you start dabbling in the wildcat arena, you, in a sense become the test subject. Kind of like a test pilot. Anyone new to the Sherman and new to reloading should be in contact with Rich in my opinion. He has a wealth of information, tested the cartridges himself, and can guide people on a good path. I'd also recommend reading Ackley's books on reloading and using Gordons Reloading Tool (paid version). The paid version gives you access to the programmers who can help you accurately model the cartridge. As an example

As far as Proof. Don't sweep the issue under the rug. Just be transparent. Acknowledge that there IS an issue, but more importantly ask people to hold off chambering their barrels with the Sherman line of cartridges until some resolve has been established. As fast as the Sherman community is growing, it still wouldn't scratch the surface of their revenue but it may save a new reloaders face at best and at minimum, reduce some frustrations.

Good luck with the mile shots!

 

[Zorack]

Maybe it's the Sherman line of cartridges and they cant really do what you say they can safely????? Maybe it's A brass issue???? Maybe it's a powder issue???? Maybe it's a bullet issue???? The list goes on and on and on. It's gonna go around in circles with everyone pointing the finger at each other
Take one of those so called "tight bore" proofs and chamber it in a PROVEN cartridge and see what happens

Maybe it's the Sherman line of cartridges and they cant really do what you say they can safely????? Maybe it's A brass issue???? Maybe it's a powder issue???? Maybe it's a bullet issue???? The list goes on and on and on. It's gonna go around in circles with everyone pointing the finger at each other
Take one of those so called "tight bore" proofs and chamber it in a PROVEN cartridge and see what happens

Well on that note, my GS here has sent several barrels back to proof with different diameter bores for being tight.

 

[Tidus56]

WHAT HAPPENS is they are often very slow regardless of the chamber! I have dozens of gunsmiths around the country that chamber all chamberings.
When gunsmiths have to use the smallest bushing they have on their reamers to get the pilot started, its tight.
When even Proof admitted 10% of their barrels are tight; they're tight.
When loads 3-4 grains under normal loads in other barrels over pressure; theyre tight!, Etc, etc

I have only worked on 3 proof barrels and all were 75-100 fps slower than I expected them to be. So chamber wouldn't be the issue, it would be the barrel. So I agree with you sir.

 

[nksmfamjp]

I'm not aware of any cut rifle barrel maker who stress relieves after there cut except maybe cyro, and there's alot of beliefs on both sides of that as well.
But to say cut rifle barrel makers " control" there heat treat is wrong unless they do it in house which im not aware any the cut rifle barrels do. Any barrel maker is up to the mercy steel bar stock maker for heat treat after the bar stock is made,but all bar stock for making barrels is not the same in composition or there heat treat process

I've been thinking about my post about this point. My real point is they have to have a consistant input to get a precise output. That said I cannot find my source for why I thought cut rifled makers all heat treated before cutting. I'm likely wrong since I cannot find my source.

I will defer to L.Sherm's barrel making expertise about this one. I guess they may not control their input material. I wonder how they get anything close to a good product coming out of the machine. That said, I know many cut rifled barrels are a good product. I own 3.

 

[orkan]

How about a shop that does both? Benchmark does both. I've worked with enough of their cut rifled and button barrels to say I haven't seen a difference between the two as of this point. They use both methods to produce absolute lasers.


-----------
Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
Amazon Affiliate

 

[L.Sherm]

I dont claim to be an " expert".
I have no dog in this fight, all I can pass one is ive shot 3 proof steel barrels and 4 or 5 Carbon ones and the all have shot well I cant say maybe BR accuracy but thats not what I expected either. Last year I put on a 6.5 - 8 twist Proof carbon on a Defiance Anti-X and it will shoot 4" groups at 871 yards off a bipod if I do my part
Seems alot of people have high expectations out of a certain barrel especially velocity because so and so had done it.
Here's an example that happened to me when I first put my 30-28 with a barrel I made myself, the first 100 rounds it wouldn't go any faster than right at 3000fps with a 215 no matter what powder or how much I put in it.
I was just about to pull it off thinking I made a tomato stake for myself took it out 1 last time and out of the blue it came to life and I didn't do anything different as far as powder or charges than I had the first 100 rounds.
Why that barrel did that I have no idea my guess there was a piece of the 12' bar stock it was cut from for whatever reason took forever for it to speed up and that fast. Ive seen inclusions in pieces of barrel steel that haven't showed up untill there either heat treated after button pulling or once in a Kreiger not untill after 200 rounds were on the barrel and it wasn't there when it was new.

 

[orkan]

Most barrels speed up within 250 rounds. The more overbore the cartridge, the fewer rounds they need to speed up, typically.


-----------
Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
Amazon Affiliate

 

[L.Sherm]

I've never had one gain literally 180 fps and not do what this barrel did, no matter what wouldnt go over 3000fps with a 215 and I saw pressure with H1000 at 3180fps after it transitioned. All my other barrels would gain between 35-60fps by 100 rounds.
I dont get serious with load development untill I get 100 rounds on a barrel.

 

[adam32+P]

How about a shop that does both? Benchmark does both. I've worked with enough of their cut rifled and button barrels to say I haven't seen a difference between the two as of this point. They use both methods to produce absolute lasers.


-----------
Follow on Instagram
Subscribe on YouTube
Amazon Affiliate

When did Benchmark start doing cut rifling?

Satern does both cut and button, and makes probably the best carbon barrel available.

 

[orkan]

When did Benchmark start doing cut rifling?

Satern does both cut and button, and makes probably the best carbon barrel available.

Round about the same time they started doing carbon barrels, if memory serves.