Progression of ELR Community

[THEIS]

Question;

Is it currently possible to have copper jacketed aluminum tipped tungsten powder filled bullets produced by a custom bullet maker?

Hello,

While I am no legal counsel I would say per my opinion that per the BATFE definition of "armor piercing" YES you could.

BATFE direct definition here:
Armor piercing ammunition
18 U.S.C., § 921(a)(17)(B)
A projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
A full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
The term "armor piercing ammunition" does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

BUT there may be State laws that are more strict than the Federal law...

The "pistol" clause is what allowed the BATFE to go after M855 ammunition due to AR "pistols"....

THEIS

 

[Chandalar]

Thanks for the response, I hope others will also offer and opinion as well.

 

[THEIS]

Hello,

As I have previously mentioned; the ELR world is driven more by International Government and Defense than USA civilian shooters. Which is pretty much the exact opposite of all other shooting "genres".

Awaiting ammunition and support equipment specs/details but I already know that JTF2 has some top, top of the line support equipment.

Here is another prime example

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...ill-shot-in-iraq/article35415651/?service=amp

THEIS

 

[Deleted member 46119]

Hello,

As I have previously mentioned; the ELR world is driven more by International Government and Defense than USA civilian shooters. Which is pretty much the exact opposite of all other shooting "genres".

Awaiting ammunition and support equipment specs/details but I already know that JTF2 has some top, top of the line support equipment.

Here is another prime example

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...ill-shot-in-iraq/article35415651/?service=amp

THEIS

I think the Defense/Military ELR and the Civilian ELR are pretty much in lock step. We don't know the projectile/load the shooter used. I'm sure it wasn't Ball pulled from links.

The barrel specs read like those straight off Pac-Nor's website.

We will not know what support equipment was used unless and until someone exposes it.

 

[THEIS]

I think the Defense/Military ELR and the Civilian ELR are pretty much in lock step. We don't know the projectile/load the shooter used. I'm sure it wasn't Ball pulled from links.

The barrel specs read like those straight off Pac-Nor's website.

We will not know what support equipment was used unless and until someone exposes it.

Hello,

Barrels on the C15 Long Range Sniper Weapon are Lilja...

JTF2 are well known to utilize Amax projectiles loaded to a pressure that Crane NSW, SOCOM, and/or JSOC will let the USA Teams use. That is one of the reasons the magazine release was redesigned on the Tac50...their recoil was jarring magazine out.

Support equipment is pretty much "common" knowledge from the article stating they have "hard" video evidence of the shot.

It is the support equipment that puts the Defense/Military ELR sectors OUT of step with civilian ELR sector. Not many civilian ELR shooters using a Torey Pines Logic Venom LX wind detection/surveillance system or other Lidar/Lidar hybrid wind detection systems. Not many civilian ELR spotters using a digital zoom observation system that is good enough for facial recognition at 3000m. The list goes on......With the Defense/Military using support equipment that most civilians cannot afford gives the Defense/Military sectors the experience, knowledge and desire to get even "more" out of their weapon systems and cartridges...

THEIS

 

[Deleted member 46119]

..
It is the support equipment that puts the Defense/Military ELR sectors OUT of step with civilian ELR sector. Not many civilian ELR shooters using a Torey Pines Logic Venom LX wind detection/surveillance system or other Lidar/Lidar hybrid wind detection systems. Not many civilian ELR spotters using a digital zoom observation system that is good enough for facial recognition at 3000m. ..THEIS

No not many civilians will have those kinds of wind detection systems. Optics to resolve a face at 3000m, not so expensive. Maybe not with "digital zoom".

On thing to take into consideration is the defense/military would have a crew of 5 to 10 to serve the shooter. Civilians would usually have 1 or 2. The mission parameters or defense/military are very different from the mission parameters of the civilian shooter.

The firearms and ammo are very close. I did my little analysis based on a 750 A-Max running at 100% case fill of H 50BMG powder and max coal. Pressure be dammed becuase the TAC-50 can take what ever the brass can take. Spec is for machine guns and much lower pressure with sloppy sloppy eat anything just don't jamb chambers.

I know my ALS 50 EDM/DTC can be loaded to very good accuracy levels and higher velocities. Reading the wind at 3200m. I'm a shooter, I want to do it the hard way as I'm only killing a piece of steel so my mission parameters are very very different. If I miss my piece of steel nobody dies. If a sniper misses, um...

I love that mil/def is driving the technology and the makers see that driving the technology down to civilian price levels is a valid profit program.

 

[THEIS]

Hello,

Well to continue the discussion of Progression

Emirates Defense Industries Company begins testing of new 377gr .338 projectile next month when I get back over there. Both projectiles are tungsten core, but 1 is polymer encased and other is brass encased.

Upon successful testing I will be going to visit Bruce and get going on "tweaking" the 585 Orca to meet our requirements.

FINALLY as of 21st of this month I am retired from US Government Service, so I can get on with business ventures. I have taken an early retirement package that "rolled back" my total years to a lessor amount of years but waives the mandatory 5 year waiting period before I can personally benefit from ANY contact/connection made while working for the US Government Service...yay me haha

Uncle Sam has been GREAT to me and I wish all those still publicly serving and privately serving the very BEST in their missions and futures but time for me to swap the 1 image for the other image

THEIS

 

[THEIS]

Hello,

Time to scout out a new firing range for upcoming T&E.....completely different weather and environmental factors here than my normal shooting locations.




THEIS

 

[Deleted member 46119]

Hello,

Time to scout out a new firing range for upcoming T&E.....completely different weather and environmental factors here than my normal shooting locations.


View attachment 77037

THEIS

The berm is a little close and I think the 50s are gonna damage the fence.

 

[THEIS]

The berm is a little close and I think the 50s are gonna damage the fence.

LOL that is true

For some odd reason they did not let us drive through the fencing to find a spot, BUT luckily for us had were able to summons a Piaggio Aerospace UAV from a sister company ADASI to map for us.

Should be completed case redesign in next couple weeks.....to really get going on projectile and weapons system testing. We are hoping to have over 25k rounds fired for data collection before SOFEX next May, so that we go there with "production" run ammunition and weapon systems.

THEIS

 

[THEIS]

Hello,

Playing around with sintered tungsten mixed with my patented polymer combination.

This batch is purely to get acclimated to the Zeiss Contura abilities.



THEIS

 

[LastShot300]

Speaking of Porbaility of Hit, I wonder how many shots the canadian team took to effectively get a kill.

I'm well versed in this area, and the technology for first-round hits is simply not here.

Take for instance the recent KO2M. Two shooters fired a total of 6 six shots to get just one hit at the two mile target. In rough numbers that yields a 16% of P(h). In other words, you cannot rely on such systems to make a shot on a HV target.

You can have LIDAR, super lasers, whatever, but you don't have perfect bullets with perfect MV and perfect barrels. Dispersion will happen no matter what.

Anyway, if any one can add some more to the story...I read that a Predator was hovering over and filmed the entire feat, and that the location was not precisely in Irak.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

Hello,

Playing around with sintered tungsten mixed with my patented polymer combination.

This batch is purely to get acclimated to the Zeiss Contura abilities.

View attachment 77187

THEIS

What is the "density" of your compound? Pb is ~11.34, W is ~19.25.

Jacketed lead projectiles are less than ~11.34 because the Cu jacket is ~8.96

Perhaps I'm being pedantic but as I understand it a metal+polymer is a composites not a sintering. Though if they are made by high pressure pressing followed by a heating process to fuse the polymer to the tungsten then I guess it's a sintering.

 

[THEIS]

Hello,

"Sintering" it is.. , more precisely liquid-state sintering in which at least one but not all elements are in a liquid state.

The image posted previously is a 220gr .308 projectile with exact "footprint" of a 190gr .308 projectile. "Density" of these exact ones are 12.8 but this end weight grain is not settled upon since we are still testing the "mixture" so the "density" changes when the % of individual compounds change.

THEIS