You are correct; English is not my first or second language. The "Old" language dialect of Swiss German is my first.
THEIS
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Progression of ELR Community
- Thread starter THEIS
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You are correct; English is not my first or second language. The "Old" language dialect of Swiss German is my first.
THEIS
Hello,
Here are a couple questions to continue the Progression of ELR conversation...
1. Where and/or how do you see the next "advancement" coming from? Projectiles, Barrels, Propellants, Primers, Optics, etc
2. Where and/or how do you see augmented reality coming onto the scene in the ELR world?
THEIS
Here are a couple questions to continue the Progression of ELR conversation...
1. Where and/or how do you see the next "advancement" coming from? Projectiles, Barrels, Propellants, Primers, Optics, etc
2. Where and/or how do you see augmented reality coming onto the scene in the ELR world?
THEIS
Broz
Well-Known Member
Hello,
Augmented reality (Not virtual reality) equipment such as the hololens.
Equipping shooter and spotters with hololens units that are connected to portable doppler and lidar units connected to portable weather stations will allow "communication" between shooter and spotters with ZERO voice comms needed.
Spotter #1 calculates firing solution and shooter automatically sees the firing solution via augmented reality hololens unit.
Spotter #1 also sees in real time what spotter #2 sees even though they are 3000m away from each other.
Command and Control also sees what spotters and shooter see without having to have drone in area. Visual "sights" are sent through augmented reality units for real time target verification.
Having the augmented reality hololens paired with doppler, weather unit and ballistic software will also allow the shooter and spotter to know if shot is a hit or miss BEFORE the bullet actually gets to target, so on those 5-8sec TOF you could have made firing solution correction and second shot on way to target before first shot even gets to target.
So question was...where and how do you see augmented reality being a part of the advancing ELR world?
Edited to Add....What advancement(s) do you see in propellants coming down the line?
I actually think we are going to see advancements in projectiles. I think we are going to see more utilization of heavier density alloys. Sort of an advancement onto the "dual" alloy projectiles from ruag. Where the top half of the projectile is a heavy/hard alloy and bottom half (engraving portion) is a softer alloy. I think the advancement on that principle is going to be basically a "cored" monolithic where the core will be super heavy/hard allow pressed/molded into a "standard" monolithic type solid.
THEIS
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
I interpret a military emphasis to your questions.
Do I understand that correctly?
Do I understand that correctly?
Hello,
Incorrect..The questions themselves are just that---Questions. They have no emphasis at all.
Your reply to the questions can be any emphasis you so desire. My reply to the questions are Governmental emphasis but not the questions themselves.
THEIS
Re: Progression of ELR Communit
Propellants:
While I have rifles that I shoot out to 1500 yards, I wouldn't consider my level of expertise to be in the current class of dedicated ELR shooters. I do try to extract methods and ideas that support or enhance my primary interest which is long range hunting. Having spent a career in the manufacture and sales of Laboratory test equipment and chemicals, I have always wondered about the processes and testing procedures used in the production of rifle propellants. I have found few LR and ELR shooters that haven't standardized their precision loads on a sufficient quantity of a specific lot of their chosen powder. The impression I have is that the rifle propellant manufacturers have a long way to go in meeting production and process controls that even come close to those used by the "high value added" chemical producers. While I wouldn't expect the rifle propellant manufacturers to use the same process and testing procedures as those used by a product that sells for $100/gram, there certainly seems to be an opportunity for them to do a lot better then they are doing currently. Like the bullet manufacturers seeing a market for high BC, precision bullets, perhaps the propellant(and perhaps the primer) manufacturers can do the same thing with tailored LR/ELR propellants that are produced to more exacting standards. They may have become the weak link in the system. While I am sure that there may be more disruptive, new technology advancements in propellant technology in the works, there may be shorter term benefits to us and the producers by "mastering in the previous before moving on to the subsequent". IMO.
Propellants:
While I have rifles that I shoot out to 1500 yards, I wouldn't consider my level of expertise to be in the current class of dedicated ELR shooters. I do try to extract methods and ideas that support or enhance my primary interest which is long range hunting. Having spent a career in the manufacture and sales of Laboratory test equipment and chemicals, I have always wondered about the processes and testing procedures used in the production of rifle propellants. I have found few LR and ELR shooters that haven't standardized their precision loads on a sufficient quantity of a specific lot of their chosen powder. The impression I have is that the rifle propellant manufacturers have a long way to go in meeting production and process controls that even come close to those used by the "high value added" chemical producers. While I wouldn't expect the rifle propellant manufacturers to use the same process and testing procedures as those used by a product that sells for $100/gram, there certainly seems to be an opportunity for them to do a lot better then they are doing currently. Like the bullet manufacturers seeing a market for high BC, precision bullets, perhaps the propellant(and perhaps the primer) manufacturers can do the same thing with tailored LR/ELR propellants that are produced to more exacting standards. They may have become the weak link in the system. While I am sure that there may be more disruptive, new technology advancements in propellant technology in the works, there may be shorter term benefits to us and the producers by "mastering in the previous before moving on to the subsequent". IMO.
Hello Greyfox,
That is the kind of reply I enjoy reading, Thank you.
It always amazes me as to what experience a member on a forum may or may not possess. And you have one that coincides straight in line with the posting of this thread from the beginning.
While I do not have a laboratory test equipment and chemical background...you do; and that peaks my interest for the sake of conversation AND progression of the ELR community.
From your take on test equipment and chemicals paired with reloading knowledge....what can we as reloaders and shooters in the ELR community do ourselves to even further test and "isolate" the best powder kernels of a container so that we are taking things a couple steps further past specific lot numbers as our "measuring" stick?
THEIS
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
Ahh.
I'm just a baby at this.
Advances in ELR may include "military" technology brought "down" to civilian sizes and prices. Sighting augmentation. Sensing devices small enough to carry into the hunting or PRS fields that sends firing solutions to the optics. To have success it must be operable by just the shooter and spotter.
Powders will definitely be in there. Powders to propel heavy for caliber projectiles with less unburnt powder, soot and residue for more shots between cleaning.
Cooling, carbon fiber and other forms of jacketed barrels to pull more heat away from the barrel.
There are just progressions. Nothing revolutionary.
Smart projectiles have challenges I don't see being overcome withing 10 years. IC chips with gyro/dead reckoning that can survive the rapid acceleration of high velocity projectiles are not a commodity. After that there is how to impact the trajectory. vanes and ports that can be actuated by smart metal motion as servos are slow and will have problems on friction.
D
Deleted member 46119
Guest
Any and everything that will make the first shot the same as the second shot and beyond.
Barrels. Barrel cooling. Barrels.
Barrels. Barrel cooling. Barrels.
Broz
Well-Known Member
1: I agree with Grayfox about consistency, this may be improved. But also myself and others are basing case capacities for current burn rates. I know some testing is being done, and I think some new burn rates are needed. I look for this to be one of the sooner doors to open and offer new venues.
2: You could be correct about projectiles. You addressed the problems. Other problems are out there with about every ELR projectile offered today. I also believe some of these problems, are being blamed on other items. Your suggestions of heavy cores, or ultra high BC lead cores, may correct a lot of things. But that is just my opinion.
Jeff
While I wouldnt claim in depth knowledge of the tests and procedures used by the manufacurers, I do have a test procedure for my propellants, and am very judicious about testing whenever I buy a new, or change lots or powder with a specific rifle. While some powders have improved over the years, I do believe it's a good idea to do some form of test with each new lot of powder that is to be used in high precision long range applications. The tests I perform will use the same rifle and lot for components(brass, primer bullet) and the same recipe. I will test for:
-accuracy at 200 yards
-velocity and ES
-1000 yard drop data to confirm accuracy and drops
-temperature stability at warm(60-80F)and cold(25-35) temperature.
-visual check of kernel size and coloration.
My best results and consistency, especially since the introduction of the "Extreme" moniker has been the Hogdon powders, in particular H1000, Retumbo, H4831sc, and Varget. They have improved quite a lot compared to 6-7 years ago. Having said that, I have still found velocity variations from lot to lot requiring charge weight modifications as much as .5-2 grains, urging me to buy a sufficient lot size of powder when developing a load. I have not had the same temperature consistency from IMR or Alliant powders. I have not yet tried the newer temperature controlled Alliant or the VV powders as they are harder to come by where I live. While I know that many shooters practice blending, I'm not a proponent of this. While accuracy can be fine, I worry about velocity spreads being additive, particularly if the average velocity for each powder is not within 10-15 FPS. I have seen some indications of this. Interestingly, this was a watch out that was noted in my past chemical experience with lot blending effects. It's not a big deal for mid range work, but would be a problem at long range. I don't believe tests such as "selecting" kernels", or more appropriately termed, "chemical constituency" of the powder falls within the scope of our capabilities, and are unique to the manufacturer. As mentioned in my previous post, I am hopeful that one or more of the propellant manufacturers are motivated to perhaps look into producing "ELR" grade powders, akin to Match Grade Primers or, what the bullet manufacturers have done with long range bullet design. .
yobuck
Well-Known Member
AND THE WINNER IS, (MOTHER NATURE). LOL
Seriously, especially from the standpoint of hunting long range, we cant shoot any
further than we can (clearly) see the target.
In almost 50 years of hunting long range in one of the best areas at least in the (eastern) part of the country, the limiting factor hasent changed.
We have a very short season at a poor time of year for air clarity.
In PA, points must be confirmed on bucks before shooting, (after they have been found).
There is no place on earth where serious hunters have better optics for doing that.
Yet in all those years, and with all the hunters I know and have known, I don't (personally) know a single one who has killed a deer in PA at a mile.
Except one guy who killed a doe out of a bunch, but I think the wrong one actually fell over.
And the fact is the vast majority are shot less than 1000 yds.
Nothing has changed other than the equiptment.
Seriously, especially from the standpoint of hunting long range, we cant shoot any
further than we can (clearly) see the target.
In almost 50 years of hunting long range in one of the best areas at least in the (eastern) part of the country, the limiting factor hasent changed.
We have a very short season at a poor time of year for air clarity.
In PA, points must be confirmed on bucks before shooting, (after they have been found).
There is no place on earth where serious hunters have better optics for doing that.
Yet in all those years, and with all the hunters I know and have known, I don't (personally) know a single one who has killed a deer in PA at a mile.
Except one guy who killed a doe out of a bunch, but I think the wrong one actually fell over.
And the fact is the vast majority are shot less than 1000 yds.
Nothing has changed other than the equiptment.
Hello,
Well since I do not know how to do multiple quotes I will just have to reply to names.
Fred---Do you think we will go to more heat resistance alloys for barrels or continue searching for "external" cooling features?
Jeff--In regards to burn rates. Do you think the ELR community will ever embrace the use of cellulose detonator tubes as a "burn rate stop gap" until some different propellants come about with different burn rates come available?
THEIS
Well since I do not know how to do multiple quotes I will just have to reply to names.
Fred---Do you think we will go to more heat resistance alloys for barrels or continue searching for "external" cooling features?
Jeff--In regards to burn rates. Do you think the ELR community will ever embrace the use of cellulose detonator tubes as a "burn rate stop gap" until some different propellants come about with different burn rates come available?
THEIS
