Problems w/Norma ammo - need advice

[Mike Matteson]

I have loaded for years 3-308 Norma Mags rifles. I have Norma brass and still due. I found their case weight to very greatly, heavy to boot, I have set them aside. You can get 300 Win Mag case and resize the to 308 Nor. Mag easy fire form then and, then length maybe a little long to check your case length before loading and after fire forming the case. If you can't get 300 Win Mag cases, you can use 264 WMag, 7mm Rem Mag, and 338 Win Mag case to resize to 308 norma mag cases. I would anneal the case before sizing them to start with. You pay through the nose for 308 Norma Mag case or factor loaded ammo. You could have purchase a whole reloading set for what you paid for the ammo. The biggest thing is having the 308 N. Mag dies. For years I have use a 300 WMag neck sizing die to neck size the cases. It only sizes about half the neck. From my reading most people have moved on to full length sizing there cases now. I haven't had a problem with the win mag neck sizing die.

 

[ofbandg]

I have been loading for .308 Norma Mag as well, and finding any brass was difficult for awhile. As a result I ended up with an odd collection of brass that spanned a time period of about fifty years. When I weight sorted them the differences were extreme, about 30 grains variation. If I kept them separated by weight and when loaded I could make things work but it became too much of a hassle so I put them aside and fire formed 7mm Weatherby brass to fit. I had some available and found they come out to almost the same length whereas most of those other people suggested were short. All my loads are virtually identical to .300 Win. It's a good caliber just not very popular so costs are high.

 

[Mike Matteson]

I have been loading for .308 Norma Mag as well, and finding any brass was difficult for awhile. As a result I ended up with an odd collection of brass that spanned a time period of about fifty years. When I weight sorted them the differences were extreme, about 30 grains variation. If I kept them separated by weight and when loaded I could make things work but it became too much of a hassle so I put them aside and fire formed 7mm Weatherby brass to fit. I had some available and found they come out to almost the same length whereas most of those other people suggested were short. All my loads are virtually identical to .300 Win. It's a good caliber just not very popular so costs are high.

The 308 Norma Mag was the forerunner for the 300 win mag. The 300 WM from base to shoulder is longer, and the neck is shorter.

 

[okie22br]

Could this be from breaking barrel in ?
OP posted that he purchased gun and Sig scope/rangefinder combo. I have seen some barrels do some goofy stuff the first 20+ rounds. Especially a factory barrel

 

[skipglo]

Bought 6 boxes of Norma 308 Norma mag 180 gr Oryx precision ammo from Trade Ex Canada (T.E.C.) and all were from the same lot. I had purchased a Browning Safari grade 1 along with a Sig Sauer BDX scope/rangefinder and had planned on using the combo on a bison hunt this last fall. After putting the rig together, I attempted to zero the scope and noticed very quickly that there was vertical stringing despite not changing the aiming point.
Set up my chronograph and found the FPS was ranging from 2366 to 2896 (Norma states that FPS should be 2960) and everything in between.
I contacted TEC and they informed me it was Norma's issue and after contacting Norma they replied that the cartridges were loaded correctly and that it was a transportation issue.
I was considering just pulling the bullets and weighing each charge but decided to weigh each cartridge before doing that. The total weights ranged from 478 to 483 gr with the majority in the 481-482gr zone. I'm thinking Norma is right and they were damaged in transport or stored incorrectly due to weights being somewhat consistant.
Should I pull the bullets and weigh each charge or should I just forget it and accept the fact I just ended up with some really expensive brass?
Options? Thoughts?

Transport is Bull Howey! 530 fps ED! Man I shoot .223/5.56 surplus CHINESE MILITARY ROUNDS THAT COME IN LARGE SARDINE CANS MADE IN 1998 Stamped on the inside boxes! Transport...22 year old ammo.... ED of 50 fps, how many times thru how many temperature zones, thru how many transports do you think these went thru! That's the most creative B.S. I have ever heard....pull one bullet from each box and weigh it......

 

[Hunterjones]

All of these are very good comments. One other thing that may be an outside shot in the dark after hearing about the shallow primer pocket. Could some of the flash holes be undersized so that powder isn't igniting properly??

 

[shogi]

Could this be from breaking barrel in ?
OP posted that he purchased gun and Sig scope/rangefinder combo. I have seen some barrels do some goofy stuff the first 20+ rounds. Especially a factory barrel

Unfortunately no, it's a second hand gun that shot very well. I happily took it in due to the previous owner having treated it exceptionally well.
Man, wouldn't that be great if that was the case.

 

[shogi]

Quite a number of ppl have brought up the primer/pocket as the potential issue and when I remove the 10 primers, I will be checking them very closely. Should I find any discrepancies, I'll try to take a pic and post it. Members on here have been at this a lot longer than I have and their alarm bells are a lot more sensitive than mine.
Guys, seriously, thank you. I really appreciate the guidance. This gives me a bit more of a stiff back when dealing with Norma regarding this and that my suspicions are not unfounded.

 

[Hunterjones]

Where are we on the Norma ammo situation???

 

[shogi]

Where are we on the Norma ammo situation???

My apologies Hunter for taking so long to reply. My work has sent me off to a remote job site and I'll be returning home sometime around the 12th of this month (give or take a day or two due to possible commissioning delays). I'll be getting right on solving my issue when I get back and posting an update.

 

[HARPERC]

I totally agree with that.
the highest velocity he had being 75 or so FPS under advertised is not uncommon at all but 530 FPS swing is absolutely no good.

Agreed! I don't think I've ever heard of 500 fps variance.

The list of possibilities so far is fairly complete, I'll add neck tension, either wrong from the start, or if not single loading possibility breaking loose in magazine from recoil.

Unacceptable in any event. Break them down if its interesting to you.

I don't know if it's legal where you're at, but if it was, I'd just send them back. Nothing practical about it, just sending a message this isn't OK.

Shipping is also Norma's problem.

 

[shogi]

I'm really sorry for the long delay. Finally got back home yesterday (been more than a month out of town) and the first thing I did was to finish pulling the bullets out of 40 rounds (numbered each bullet to match to the same case later), removed the primers from the first 20.
I weighed every round twice with different scales to confirm charge weights and the charges seemed good, varied 72-73 grains.
Powder looked good, flowed easy, no colour variations or rust inside but I know that doesn't mean it isn't good. Looked at the primers but honestly, I have no idea what a good or bad one looks like, only know what they look like when they are shot.
Weighed the bullets and they were pretty much bang on at 181 grains (180 Oryx).
Tallied up all the powder charge weights and divided by 20 and came up with 72.5.
Resized all brass and loaded the first 20 with new primers (Federal Gold match large rifle magnum 215) and then charged with 72.5 grains of the powder I removed from the first 20.
Then prepped the cases of the next 20, charged them with 78 grains of H1000 (2 grains shy of max load according to Hornady 10th edition) and they still have the old primers which I never removed. Loaded all bullets into their corresponding cases.
I'll be heading out tomorrow, weather permitting, to chrony each round and record the data and find out which was the problem, powder or primer.
Let me know me if I missed anything.
Going to go have a good drink and chill.
It's been a crappy month.
Have a great night everyone.

 

[shogi]

Ok, I got out to the range yesterday and ran my strings with the cartridges with the new primers/old powder and the ones with the new powder/old primers.
I am now as confused and frustrated as ever and am now bald as I pulled all my hair out.
I ran a 10 string (didn't run all 20 as it was pointless, as you will see) with the first rounds being old powder/new primers.
I ran a fouling shot first and after running 10, the chrony registered my speeds as ranging from 2955-2985.
The second 10 string was new powder/old primers (78gr of H1000) and the chrony clocked them as ranging from 2955-2986.
For those that had questions regarding the addition of a new scope, I had removed my scope but left the bases (Leupold QRW) in so the test gun is exactly the same as it was when I originally shot it. If there was an issue with components interfering, it would've happened again.
I still won't be using the rest of the factory rounds (still have 3 boxes left) due to the possibility that I may have issues and I don't want the weight of a wounded animal on my conscience. I'll just be using the brass.
Thoughts?
If I missed anything, please tell me.
I thought I was going to find some conclusive evidence but Murphy stepped in and threw a wrench into those best laid plans.

 

[Tripodmvr7]

The one thing not queried was the chrony. What make, time of day when both series of shots were fired, distance from muzzle and did you replace the battery?