Primer Pockets ?

[backwoods83]

Just because a primer pocket gets loose, that doesn't have **** to do with abuse of cases or any rifle per say. Not all brass is made equal, actually everyone favorite (lapua) has less tin and chromium than lesser brands and is usually 77% copper and 23% zinc, went cartridge brass should ideally be 75% copper 24% zinc .5% chromium and .5% tin, like winchester for instance, it isn't very uniform but its as tough as nails. Also the locking lugs will let you know when its time to step up to a bigger case, when they start gualding up, then you're damaging the rifle, other than that if a manufacterer chambers a 65k psi cartridge, you can bet your *** the rifle was proof tested to double that pressure. This also means that all europeans are idiots as well, since they run some of the same cartridges we have 15-20% higher in pressure than we do. 338lm for example, they run it just shy of 70k psi we cut it back under 65k. Primers are the most useless way to check for high pressure than any other method.

 

[varmintH8R]

That's the fun of the Ackley's not know where you can go...................the results can be hard on cases but you never know where you can go until you try...................Ive had 100gr bullets @3350 but then ended up at 3140. There is pro's and con's

Hi Greg -

I don't fully subscribe to this way of thinking. I would say that Ackley's deserve additional respect and a conservative approach because they have bot been as fully studied in a test environment as SAAMI cartridges. The idea that you don't know where you can go is somewhat of a dangerous one - if you are 300fps over book loads for .243 (and unless you have a super long barrel or other contributing factor) I would be nervous. Beating up brass is one thing, continuously beating on an action is another . . .

I am not pretending to be an expert, just saying use some caution and make sure you are safe. I agree fully with Lefty7mmSTW - if you need to push beyond the tested safe range of a given cartridge to get the performance you need in an application, look to take a step up. I don't think this is a "compensating" type thing, just a generally good practice. . .

 

[varmintH8R]

Just because a primer pocket gets loose, that doesn't have **** to do with abuse of cases or any rifle per say .

Uhh, unless I am missing something primer pockets getting loose have everything to do with the abuse of a case. By definition . . .

In an earlier post, you talked about a friend of yours that built a special jig to tighten primer pockets, and then still needed to seal them with nail polish to avoid gas leaks/bolt face etching. The context of the post is that he runs high overpressure and that is why this is necessary.

While it may work, I don't think that you can make a case that it is best practice, and the experience of your friend does NOT mean that it is safe in others' equipment. Everyone is ultimately responsible for their own decisions, but it is worth keeping in mind that some people take what they read on these sites at face value (as a best practice, as highly researched, etc).

For me, a special jig and sealing primer pockets to avoid bolt etch are waaaaay outside my comfort zone. I subscribe to Lefty's idea of moving up to a cartridge that does what I want within specifications that have been tested empirically as safe.

 

[backwoods83]

Do what you want, I'm not telling anyone one to listen to me. But try reloading hornady cases from superformance ammo and see how tight they are, and that is commercial ammo. Once again it is up to the individual, but I will say, "there is nothing wrong with tightening primer pockets as long as there isn't anything else wrong with the casing."

 

[RTK]

. Primers are the most useless way to check for high pressure than any other method.

What other methods do you feel are better? Hard bolt lift, ejector marks??

 

[backwoods83]

Use a micrometer on the case head. Maybe I'm the idiot here that realizes that brass is malleable/ductile, and that if the shoulder, case body, and neck expand upon firing that eventually the primer pocket will as well, but I don't hear any bickering about resizing cases, so why all the BS about resizing primer pockets if that's all that's wrong with them. Just because the pocket is loose doesn't mean the web is busted.

 

[RTK]

I'm wasn't bickering about it just asking. I haven't had too much trouble with loose primer pockets in the past and after about 10+ reloading if a few primer pockets get loose I usually toss them. With the availability of brass now, I might have to start looking into it.

 

[varmintH8R]

Use a micrometer on the case head. Maybe I'm the idiot here that realizes that brass is malleable/ductile, and that if the shoulder, case body, and neck expand upon firing that eventually the primer pocket will as well, but I don't hear any bickering about resizing cases, so why all the BS about resizing primer pockets if that's all that's wrong with them. Just because the pocket is loose doesn't mean the web is busted.

If pockets are getting loose after one or two firings, the concern is not over the tightening of the pockets but rather what is making them loose in the first place: typically over pressure loading. The OP is getting 300fps + over non AI book max velocities. While not stated explicitly, the OP also seems to infer that these cases haven't been loaded to "normal" life-cycle limits. If he can buy a tool to tighten them up, great. I personally wouldn't, but I am conservative by nature when it come to reloading - to each his own. BUT - If he continues to run over pressure, he is playing with fire and that is not an opinion or a conservative fall-back.

My issue with your previous posts are that you are implying that loading to excessive pressures is no big deal: your friend has loaded over pressure for 7+ years with no issues, you believe that actions are proof tested to 2x SAAMI pressures (once? 1000 times?), you reloaded factory brass that had loose pockets, and brass is malleable so just twist it back to shape. That is all great, but far from empirical truth that loading to extreme pressure is safe. It isn't, and only one incident in a lifetime of shooting is one too many...

In the example of your friend, he reloaded cases 30+ times and tightened pockets 3 or 4 times. It is stated that his loads are known overpressure. If the OP has finger-tight pockets after 2 or 3 loadings, would a fair assumption be that he may be waaaay over pressure? Or as long as the cases mic out OK at the head would you think it is acceptable to run any pressure that doesn't gall the locking lugs or blow the action? While primers and primer pockets may not be a great indicator for pressure, common sense says you can't ignore them either. When viewed relative to velocity, book max, times fired, etc they can (and should) be viewed as a warning sign.

 

[backwoods83]

1st example, use CCi 400s in a 22 hornet, run it up until you see pressure signs, now you have just destroied your 22 hornet brass, this works both ways, not all brass is equal nor is the cup thickness on primers, or the size of primers, one could feel loose upon seating and another brand snug, .001-.0015 makes a big difference in how primers fit. No I'm not suggesting to run 10k psi over saami spec, but I'm also saying that multiple near max (58k on a 60k psi cartridge) loads can cause pockets to loosen, doesn't mean the brass is bad. The 338lapua is another good example, in saami terms its psi max is 65k, in cip terms its 68.65k, yet we still use it on actions that have been chambered for rounds as small *** a 222 (remington 700) they are available in some european countries, so do you think most europeans are going to run them around 64k or 68k? The guy asked if it was safe to tighen primer pockets, my answer was, if the rest of the case is up to par then it is safe to tighten them, simple answer. I'm not telling him to run 70k+ psi, even though some commercial rounds are loaded hotter than that, I'm just telling him that it won't hurt anything to tighten the pockets.