Premium Production Rifles Worth It?

[Reelamin]

Good quality hooks = good quality ammo in my book...

The funny thing is they rarelu mention the reel line pole waders boat or even the hook used on 99.9 percent of fish caught. I think opinions and differences on all of this stuff is awesome and hilarious at the same time. Thanks bud!

 

[Kimber7man]

Answering the question about what you get with the Premium rifles is an easy one.
The Kimber is hand fitted to the stock and hand bedded, this attention to detail is what you're paying for.
I have several Kimbers, ranging from the top of the line down to the Classic. I do not own a Hunter model, but do have Super America, Select grade, Talkeetna and Montana. I cannot fault any for fit and finish. I did have one with a bad chamber job, but polishing it cured it's woes.
Of the 13 I own, all are excellent shooters.
I have a few old "L" series Sako rifles and when new they were about 3 months wages for my Dad, so very expensive. They were/are one of the most accurate guns out of the box, again, you are paying for hand fitting and attention to detail.

Cheers.

As one might surmise from my username, I've owned a few Kimbers over the past 15 years. All models, 8400 long action, 8400 WSM, 84M, 84L, even a rimfire.

One thing - each stock is not hand bedded to the specific barreled action it is matched with - all stocks are bedded to a "slave" barreled action and then a factory barreled action is dropped in the stock. So you sometimes have to do some tweaking/fitting/sanding to ensure nothing is binding.

All would shoot once you settled in and learned your rifle. Pickiest was a 8400 Classic in 270 Winchester. Had to relieve the barrel contact on the left side of barrel channel and load the bullets out longer than mag box length. Turned into a half inch shooter with the one load it liked.

All that said, all but one of my Kimbers are now gone. I've moved on to a little heavier rifle, with a shorter threaded barrel that I use a suppressor with. Just suits me better.

 

[Muddyboots]

This is correct but you must have a receding hairline while still trying to sport a mullet "scullet" I believe, matching jeans and coat. Plus you can't drive anything. Newer than 1983 because new fangeled stuff is for the birds.

Only applies to Michigan

 

[MoreSalsa]

So I agree with what was stated earlylier. For your ranges you don't need much. I may be a bit different here but your hunting is exactly what must in Michigan do at most 4-500 yards. After building full custom ultra lights I can say keep in mind they are Harder to shoot at distance than a standard weight rifle.
Now myself and some on here won't have a problem but as a guy who spends a huge amount of time helping setup people for hunts they are going on. Must come out with all the right gear but fail to realize without all the proper bench and bags setup for them the kimbers can be hard to shoot so practice a lot.
Second I think people are on to something with the cheaper gun spend money elsewhere. Better scope, hunts, and I say some custom ammo would be a great route. Cheap gun with custom ammo will usually shoot better than good gun cheap ammo.
As for caliber I always recommend a .243 for those distance especially with your game being what it is. Keep in mind the .243 and 6creed are basically the same for your purpose. bC doesn't come into play until after your ranges so speed will be king.
Can't go wrong with either the .243, 6 creed, or 6.5 creed or even a 6.5 grendel. Keep in mind bullets are important don't expect match ammo to work like hunting ammo. It can but I prefer better bullets.
I would say if I would recommend
.243 or 6.5 creed. Savage or ruger.
Put a decent scope on it and send it out to a place like hammer bullets and get custom load work done with ammo. Or have a friend help load for you. They send back loaded ammo and you can order more anytime needed. Then go enjoy it.

When you say the Kimbers are hard to shoot, is that just due to their light weight? Just a matter of steadying it? Felt recoil? Both? Or are you saying the stocks are not good, or something else? I saw in another post that someone recommended the stock they use in one of their models, so it seems like they have good stocks (at least some of them).

If it's just a matter of a lighter gun being harder to shoot, at what weight do you think that becomes less of an issue? The lightest deer-capable rifle I've shot was probably 7.5 lbs. For me, it's a trade off -- if practical accuracy goes up considerably with a 6.5 or 7 pound rifle as opposed to say a 5-something pound rifle, I may just opt for the practical accuracy. On the other hand, I'm not adverse to building skill that can replace ounces.

For example, I decided that I'd go the tarp route for my three-season backpacking shelter. It took a lot more elbow grease to learn various knots and tarp pitches than it would have just to learn how to pitch a tent, but the result is I have a more versatile (though not as warm) shelter system that is over a pound lighter than even ultralight backpacking tents. On other things, however, I choose to carry more weight than any self-respecting ultralight backpacker would ever carry. For example, most ultralighters carry some skeleton of a first aid kit (or maybe not even a skeleton), but I carry a real kit since I consider it to be a potential life (or at least trip) saving item. So, it's just a case-by-case Goldy Locks sort of thing for me.

 

[XSIVSPD]

We backpack in Alaska lol... We use a super light 2 person tent, but have a full first aid kit with splints/tourniquet etc lol. I've cut enough weight off the gear that I now carry a little folding chair for quality of life stuff lol.

I will say the Savage stocks can be kinda terrible, but they aren't hard/expensive to stiffen up or replace. There's not a ton of ultralight options, but there are a couple for short actions. You might also look at a Christensen mpp if it'd be legal in your state.

 

[Reelamin]

When you say the Kimbers are hard to shoot, is that just due to their light weight? Just a matter of steadying it? Felt recoil? Both? Or are you saying the stocks are not good, or something else? I saw in another post that someone recommended the stock they use in one of their models, so it seems like they have good stocks (at least some of them).

If it's just a matter of a lighter gun being harder to shoot, at what weight do you think that becomes less of an issue? The lightest deer-capable rifle I've shot was probably 7.5 lbs. For me, it's a trade off -- if practical accuracy goes up considerably with a 6.5 or 7 pound rifle as opposed to say a 5-something pound rifle, I may just opt for the practical accuracy. On the other hand, I'm not adverse to building skill that can replace ounces.

For example, I decided that I'd go the tarp route for my three-season backpacking shelter. It took a lot more elbow grease to learn various knots and tarp pitches than it would have just to learn how to pitch a tent, but the result is I have a more versatile (though not as warm) shelter system that is over a pound lighter than even ultralight backpacking tents. On other things, however, I choose to carry more weight than any self-respecting ultralight backpacker would ever carry. For example, most ultralighters carry some skeleton of a first aid kit (or maybe not even a skeleton), but I carry a real kit since I consider it to be a potential life (or at least trip) saving item. So, it's just a case-by-case Goldy Locks sort of thing for me.

Best summation is light rifles are noticeably harder to shoot accurately and repeatable due to their weight not accuracy. Even if you use a brake. My newest light rifle is 3lbs lighter 7lb in 28N v 10 lb in 300RUM I currently use for hunting open country. I found for me the best consistency is my support hand cupped over the scope objective, not gripping just the amount of weight as if my elbow was on the ground if prone or sitting at the bench. The funny thing is the 28N recoils less than the 300RUM and both have brakes, and if I put a percentage on it....say 50 percent harder to shoot as accurately past 5-600yds.

 

[MoreSalsa]

I would say the first 2 things you are going to see in the rifles in the 1300-2000 dollar price range is going to be the stock, trigger and longer barrel at equally light weight.
Most rifles in the $550-$1250 price range focus on the barrel an other features like threaded muzzles or soft touch stocks or cericoat. The name of the game for ties in this lower price range is out of the box MOA accuracy with most factory ammo. They also struggle to make a gun in this price range lightweight with out chopping the barrel below 24". There are some lightweight guns in this class but most show up with 20-22" barrels. There are a few exceptions to these rules however (Tikka T3X, Winchester XPR) but while both guns are light weight and have 24 or 26" barrels (and the Tikka has an awesome trigger) they both suffer from cheesey stock syndrome.
By stepping up to the 1500 or 1700 class of rifle you may find something with a very solid stock, long barrel, and good trigger. Often these guns come with a carbon fiber stock, and match grade trigger. The easiest way to put it is to say that while accuracy is attainable at the $550 price point, attaining accuracy at the $1700 price point CAN BE easier as there are less things you have to "fiddle with." Last January I bought a Tikka stainless hunter for $900. Beautiful gun but it shot federal ammo into 2.5". I remover the action from the wood stock and found that the recoil lug was loose and there wasn't really much of a good connection between the action and the stock. I made 2 aluminum pillars for it on my lathe and bedded the action and recoil lug with Brownells accraglass ($14). Now it shoots my hand loads into 3/8". I could have just bought a Christensen Mesa or ridge and avoided all that but I choose to save $800 and just go with the accraglass. I choose the wood stock because I planned on bedding it and I new the wood stock would be easier for me to work with.

Bottom line, if I didn't have a lathe or want to mess with bedding the action. If a gunsmith is going to charge you $300-$400 to "accurize" your $1000 gun and it will be at the shop for a month why not just buy a sako/Christensen/Bergara (premier) and have your nice accurate rifle NOW with no fiddling around with stocks or triggers.
Example1 the sako S20 right now has a rebate going where if you buy the S20 hunter you can send a copy of your receipt and revive a free S20 precision stock. My brother bought that gun and it's first group out of the box without break in was the size of a dime. The S20 is regularly $1600-$1700.
Example2 the Bergara premier mountain 2.0 at 6.2-6.4 lb in 6.5creedmoor or PRC it will do everything exactly that you want. Comes with a Bergara barrel, the gun is hand built in Lawrenceville Georgia and it features an AG composite carbon fiber stock and a trigger tech trigger. For the price of $1900-$2100 you could not build this gun for that price.

I would stay away from Kimber as there isn't really much value for the price, except you get basically a blueprint win m70 action.

The average savage 110/10/111 will absolutely do everything you want it to do I'd pick the storm model with the aluminum bedding block and 24" barrel (but that's like 7.5lb). Savage has an awesome trigger but their stocks are probably the cheesiest in the industry. The new models with the aluminum bedding block fix this at the price of weight.

Caliber.
Chosing a lighter caliber will definitely benefit and kill anything you want out to 500 yards. 308, 65creedmoor, 65prc, 25-06 7mm-08 and 270 are all great options. I know everyone hates the 65creedmoor but honestly chosing either 65creed or 308 gets you the most gun options because more guns are made in those calibers. So ammo will be easier to find than 7mm08, 25-06 and 65prc.

I know someone is going to get on here and try to say the 7mm 08 or 25-06 is more popular and why didn't I mention the 260 rem but honestly I go to alot of gunstores around the country and I haven't seen a gun on the shelf chambered in 7mm-08 since 2019. I have never seen a factory rifle sitting on the shelf chambered in 260rem and I did see one 25-06 but I've never found the ammo for it anywhere and this is from a guy who goes to enough gun stores to buy primers off the shelf through the pandemic. ....

Lots of other great options out there in the mid range:
Browning X bolt
Weatherby Vanguard

Thank you for this, this is all super on-point info. I can tell you for sure that I want everything that I need right now without fiddling. The "everything that I need" is what this post is about and your response tells me a lot. I wouldn't necessarily mind learning how to work with a rifle to enhance accuracy, but right now I'd rather spend my time getting ready for my next hunt.

On "cheesy stocks", I'm getting the sense that you are referring to both the ergonomics/ability to support practical, in-the-field accuracy and supporting inherent accuracy in the rifle design. Is that right? Are you saying that the Savage stock with the aluminum bedding (do they still call that the AccuStock?) covers both of those bases? If so, are you saying that basically the Savage is more or less the equal of the Sako/Christensen/Bergara for my limited purposes? Not sure if I'm missing something there...

I actually used to have one of those Savages with the AccuStock in 30-06 and it shot pretty well. The stock was definitely cheesy in the sense that it did not look very cool or high-end.

On the caliber, it sounds like 6.5 CR gets a lot of shade, but it does seem like the best fit for me if I am going to forego .243, since I want something with low recoil and good factory load availability, as I won't be reloading for the time being. One issue is the red tape in my state around ammo (especially hunting ammo). Right now, it seems like 6.5 CR is more available than most calibers.

 

[Reelamin]

Thank you for this, this is all super on-point info. I can tell you for sure that I want everything that I need right now without fiddling. The "everything that I need" is what this post is about and your response tells me a lot. I wouldn't necessarily mind learning how to work with a rifle to enhance accuracy, but right now I'd rather spend my time getting ready for my next hunt.

On "cheesy stocks", I'm getting the sense that you are referring to both the ergonomics/ability to support practical, in-the-field accuracy and supporting inherent accuracy in the rifle design. Is that right? Are you saying that the Savage stock with the aluminum bedding (do they still call that the AccuStock?) covers both of those bases? If so, are you saying that basically the Savage is more or less the equal of the Sako/Christensen/Bergara for my limited purposes? Not sure if I'm missing something there...

I actually used to have one of those Savages with the AccuStock in 30-06 and it shot pretty well. The stock was definitely cheesy in the sense that it did not look very cool or high-end.

On the caliber, it sounds like 6.5 CR gets a lot of shade, but it does seem like the best fit for me if I am going to forego .243, since I want something with low recoil and good factory load availability, as I won't be reloading for the time being. One issue is the red tape in my state around ammo (especially hunting ammo). Right now, it seems like 6.5 CR is more available than most calibers.

Is your red tape unable to buy it or something else?

 

[MoreSalsa]

Best summation is light rifles are noticeably harder to shoot accurately and repeatable due to their weight not accuracy. Even if you use a brake. My newest light rifle is 3lbs lighter 7lb in 28N v 10 lb in 300RUM I currently use for hunting open country. I found for me the best consistency is my support hand cupped over the scope objective, not gripping just the amount of weight as if my elbow was on the ground if prone or sitting at the bench. The funny thing is the 28N recoils less than the 300RUM and both have brakes, and if I put a percentage on it....say 50 percent harder to shoot as accurately past 5-600yds.

Thanks. I should have been clearer about this, but is the 7 lb and the 10 lb just the rifle, or is that including scope, rings, etc.?

I have no experience with any of these light weight rifles, so I want to make sure I understand the trade off. The sense I'm getting is that it's just a sliding scale of light weight vs. practical accuracy, and a 7 or 7.5 lb rifle (rifle only) - instead of something like the 5 lb 9 oz Kimber Hunter or 6.2 lb Tikka - is definitely not out of the question for me if it's going to substantially up my practical field accuracy. I'm sure a 9 lb rifle (rifle only) would be proportionally easier to shoot, but 7.5 lb (rifle only) is about as heavy as I'd go before I'd decide that I'll just have to deal with the rifle and learn how to shoot it the best I can.

 

[MoreSalsa]

Is your red tape unable to buy it or something else?

Difficult and expensive to buy, limited sources, and probably supply issues - all due to regulations. For hunting, must be non-lead, which of course greatly limits your options for factory loads. I haven't had to run the obstacle course since a lot of the regs passed, so I don't really know how bad it is. My thought is that I'll have fewer obstacles and life will be easier if I'm looking for a popular, widely available caliber. And there are a lot of manbuns in my state. My hunts might be in other states but I'll need to do my range work in state.

 

[Reelamin]

Thanks. I should have been clearer about this, but is the 7 lb and the 10 lb just the rifle, or is that including scope, rings, etc.?

I have no experience with any of these light weight rifles, so I want to make sure I understand the trade off. The sense I'm getting is that it's just a sliding scale of light weight vs. practical accuracy, and a 7 or 7.5 lb rifle (rifle only) - instead of something like the 5 lb 9 oz Kimber Hunter or 6.2 lb Tikka - is definitely not out of the question for me if it's going to substantially up my practical field accuracy. I'm sure a 9 lb rifle (rifle only) would be proportionally easier to shoot, but 7.5 lb (rifle only) is about as heavy as I'd go before I'd decide that I'll just have to deal with the rifle and learn how to shoot it the best I can.

Sorry I did not give more details to help you. The 28N ready to hunt is exactly 7lb 15oz. The 300RUM ready to hunt is 10lb 8oz. The oz were close enough to each other I just rounded them down to an even number. I could have rounded up and no reason why I went down. The 28 is .150" more accurate at 100yds and they are almost identical out to 500yds, and at distance I can shoot noticeably smaller groups with the 300.....both shooting the standard Accubond 160gr at 3350fps and 180gr at 3400fps. To me the only real difference is the rifles weight and shot impulse has more affect on my accuracy with the rifle at long range. The 28 has a five port Muzzle Brakes and More TI, and the 300 has a Magnabrake radial. I have 700 plus down the 300 and shot it since about 2002, but only have had the brake on it for the last 150 rounds. I have had the 28 for less than a year with 150 down it including load development.

 

[Reelamin]

Difficult and expensive to buy, limited sources, and probably supply issues - all due to regulations. For hunting, must be non-lead, which of course greatly limits your options for factory loads. I haven't had to run the obstacle course since a lot of the regs passed, so I don't really know how bad it is. My thought is that I'll have fewer obstacles and life will be easier if I'm looking for a popular, widely available caliber. And there are a lot of manbuns in my state. My hunts might be in other states but I'll need to do my range work in state.

Luckily you live in America....we are still free (less every day so don't drag your feet) and you have the entire country/world to source your ammo from. Just be smart and you will be able to find what you want even in todays messed up world. I found 50 brand new R-P 7mm STW cases yesterday for $42 just by making a phone call. Yes I had to drive an hour one way and that is just normal travel time for us. I could have called a buddy or two and picked them up next time either of us were in town to save the trip if I wanted.

 

[MoreSalsa]

Luckily you live in America....we are still free (less every day so don't drag your feet) and you have the entire country/world to source your ammo from. Just be smart and you will be able to find what you want even in todays messed up world. I found 50 brand new R-P 7mm STW cases yesterday for $42 just by making a phone call. Yes I had to drive an hour one way and that is just normal travel time for us. I could have called a buddy or two and picked them up next time either of us were in town to save the trip if I wanted.

I'm not sure that I have the entire country. Here, ammo is regulated like firearms, including in terms of "importation". I think this means I would have to go through an FFL to get ammo from out of state, and I'm not sure if FFLs will even do this or how much it would cost me. My experiences with the FFLs here have not been good for the most part.

 

[Shane Lindsey]

Haha, you must be from San Diego...

I have found shooting off hand/standing, the lighter rifle is easier for me as the "wobble" just occurs, don't fight it. Like a pistol.

For positions, as mentioned, the heavier rifle is easier for sure. More forgiving. You have to answer what is most important to you. Carrying a light one just to take one shot...or carrying a heavy one just to take one shot. If the majority of your terrain is mountains and timber, something a little lighter may be worth a look.

Lately, I can't seem to get away from the 10 pound range. A lot of that can be from optics...