Preferred impact velocity?

[LVJ76]

In my 7mm08s, I run the little 120 gr NBT at 3120 and have killed several whitetails and antelope beyond 500 yards. None required a second shot and none went more than 2-3 steps post impact.
Running my .280 Rems with 140 gr Accubonds at 3040 fps has yielded very impressive results from 30 yds to 300 yds. No deer sized animals have left their footprints as of yet when hit with this load.

I loaded some 120gr BT's in my 7mm-08 for my Godson to try out this coming deer season. I'm pushing them at just a little over 3,000 fps and they worked great on a Javelina this past season, it was a head shot at around 100 yds and it left a really nice exit hole.

Edd
You are right, I used partitions in the past, I actually used them and nothing else for almost 15 years, on the 7mm-08, 270 Win and 280 Rem and they always worked great. I grew up in Mexico and we didn't have the bullet availabily we have here in the US and there weren't as many options either as we have now, now there are so many options that it's hard to pick just one to shoot.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Since this thread is now 5 pages long you can probably guess that there are a lot of varied opinions on the subject. I'd suggest that you read some of the stuff by Nathan Foster at ballisticstudies.com. That guy has published A LOT of stuff on tons of different bullets, calibers, cartridges.

The answer to your question really depends on how a bullet is constructed and how it is designed to perform.

In general, bullets which fragment by design typically will perform down to 1800fps, classic soft point lead/copper designs down to 2200-2400fps, and monolithic bullets ~2400fps (however to be optimally effective they need an impact velocity of 2600-2700fps).
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Bergers for instance will perform down to 1800fps. This is the speed at which the bullet will completely fragment and why they are so effective at long range. They typically transfer 100% of their energy to the target, have multiple wound channels from fragmentation, and create a large permanent wound channel even with the relatively small amount of hydrostatic shock generated at that impact velocity. The same can be said for SMK/TMK/ELDM/Amax. Barnes on the other hand don't expand well below 2400fps and furthermore in order to generate significant hydrostatic shock (critical for fast killing especially with a monolithic bullet) ideally impact velocity needs to be >2600-2700fps.

More classic designs are typically somewhere in the middle, and while not as sleek as modern long range designs something like an A-Frame/Woodleigh Weldcore/Nosler partition when used at appropriate ranges/velocities performs extremely reliably.

You also need to consider what kind of tissue damage is acceptable to you. If you're of the mindset that dead is dead then fragmenting bullets work extremely well. If you prefer less tissue damage/bloodshot meat, prefer complete pass throughs, and are better at tracking then monolithics are a better choice because comparatively they tend to have somewhat delayed killing. That being said they both are effective so long as you can put it through a vital structure.

Personally, for long range, I like a bullet that performs like a Berger, dumping everything into the animal at a relatively low impact velocity. The multiple wound channels and large permanent wound cavity make up for the lack of hydrostatic shock at that impact velocity.

However, that being said, I'd like a bullet which performs like a hybrid of the two. Dumping a ton of energy by fragmentation but then having a monolithic base which will penetrate for a pass through. That extra hole allows for much faster exsanguination. Lehigh Defense makes the monolithic Controlled Chaos and Controlled Fracturing rounds which are advertised to do just that. The downside to them is that they have a relatively low BC and so they won't work well at what are formally considered long range distances (beyond 750). Inside of that though they seem to be extremely lethal.

I know that brings up a lot of things to think about but if you want your bullets to perform as advertised then you need to think about them.

That may hold true with some monos but not Hammers. They do not need extra vel to preform correctly. Proper twist rate is far more important than vel.

 

[LDHunter]

My best bang flop load I ever used on whitetail was a .308 diameter 150gr Nosler Partition traveling at 2400-2800fps. Any angle, any time certain death and they dropped literally in their tracks with moderate tissue destruction.

They also tended to travel straight through the deer without wandering which I've found is a problem with AccuBond bullets.

I now use ballistic tips for more accuracy and in my lightweight rifles I obsess over the Partition tips getting slammed and flattened in the magazine. I know... The accuracy difference and terminal performance is tiny at the range I usually harvest whitetails but I can't stop looking at flattened lead tips and hating them. LOL

 

[jdavistx]

Since this thread is now 5 pages long you can probably guess that there are a lot of varied opinions on the subject. I'd suggest that you read some of the stuff by Nathan Foster at ballisticstudies.com. That guy has published A LOT of stuff on tons of different bullets, calibers, cartridges.

The answer to your question really depends on how a bullet is constructed and how it is designed to perform.

In general, bullets which fragment by design typically will perform down to 1800fps, classic soft point lead/copper designs down to 2200-2400fps, and monolithic bullets ~2400fps (however to be optimally effective they need an impact velocity of 2600-2700fps).
——————————————————

Bergers for instance will perform down to 1800fps. This is the speed at which the bullet will completely fragment and why they are so effective at long range. They typically transfer 100% of their energy to the target, have multiple wound channels from fragmentation, and create a large permanent wound channel even with the relatively small amount of hydrostatic shock generated at that impact velocity. The same can be said for SMK/TMK/ELDM/Amax. Barnes on the other hand don't expand well below 2400fps and furthermore in order to generate significant hydrostatic shock (critical for fast killing especially with a monolithic bullet) ideally impact velocity needs to be >2600-2700fps.

More classic designs are typically somewhere in the middle, and while not as sleek as modern long range designs something like an A-Frame/Woodleigh Weldcore/Nosler partition when used at appropriate ranges/velocities performs extremely reliably.

You also need to consider what kind of tissue damage is acceptable to you. If you're of the mindset that dead is dead then fragmenting bullets work extremely well. If you prefer less tissue damage/bloodshot meat, prefer complete pass throughs, and are better at tracking then monolithics are a better choice because comparatively they tend to have somewhat delayed killing. That being said they both are effective so long as you can put it through a vital structure.

Personally, for long range, I like a bullet that performs like a Berger, dumping everything into the animal at a relatively low impact velocity. The multiple wound channels and large permanent wound cavity make up for the lack of hydrostatic shock at that impact velocity.

However, that being said, I'd like a bullet which performs like a hybrid of the two. Dumping a ton of energy by fragmentation but then having a monolithic base which will penetrate for a pass through. That extra hole allows for much faster exsanguination. Lehigh Defense makes the monolithic Controlled Chaos and Controlled Fracturing rounds which are advertised to do just that. The downside to them is that they have a relatively low BC and so they won't work well at what are formally considered long range distances (beyond 750). Inside of that though they seem to be extremely lethal.

I know that brings up a lot of things to think about but if you want your bullets to perform as advertised then you need to think about them.

Good comments. Yes lots of variables. For my 7mm RMAG, experience it suggests the following to me on Texas whitetail:

150gr Nosler BT - shorter range works very well. Longer range as well, but not so much.

168gr Berger hunting VLD @ 2950 FPS MV. At less than 150 or so yards it is so slick that your not going to leave all of the energy in the animal. Usually blows a big hole on exit and the deer runs a little longer before succumbing, I think, because real expansion occurs after mostly through the animal. Longer range - excellent.

So it really boils down to the shot you're taking. Of course if you knew what you were going to encounter in the field you could plan it out but that doesn't always happen.

I like the Bergers personally. Would like more energy expended earlier short range, but who knows what situation you will encounter before you go out.

 

[BoomFlop]

I do not plan on using this rifle past 200 yards. I want very fast expansion, enough toughness to get through a shoulder if needed.

 

[jdavistx]

At less than 200 yards, just about anything will work. I would go with something like a Nosler 150BT. I would not waste my extra money on fancy high BC (or other) bullets. I've shot WT with an old 30-30 (blunt force trauma) w/ iron sights at that range and it dropped them in their tracks.You will have plenty of energy so pick something your gun shoots accurately. Note the Berger/Litz article I referenced. IMHO

 

[Hand Skills]

My best bang flop load I ever used on whitetail was a .308 diameter 150gr Nosler Partition traveling at 2400-2800fps. Any angle, any time certain death and they dropped literally in their tracks with moderate tissue destruction.

They also tended to travel straight through the deer without wandering which I've found is a problem with AccuBond bullets.

I now use ballistic tips for more accuracy and in my lightweight rifles I obsess over the Partition tips getting slammed and flattened in the magazine. I know... The accuracy difference and terminal performance is tiny at the range I usually harvest whitetails but I can't stop looking at flattened lead tips and hating them. LOL

You are not the only one. My father has a similar attention to detail. He showed me pretty early on how to 'deaden' the lead points (similar to how a carpenter deadens a nail to prevent it splitting the wood). This really limits deformation in the mag. I never fully got on board with flattening my tips, but over the years I gained affinity for the 180gr 'protected point' partitions as they come pre-flattened.

When it comes to bullet performance, target resistance can play a role. There is some difference between a 120lb doe and a 300lb buck. I don't have a lot of experience with other bullets because the partitions perform so reliably no matter what I'm shooting then into.

Gotta agree, inside 300yd, the 150 partition is hard to beat.

 

[LVJ76]

You are not the only one. My father has a similar attention to detail. He showed me pretty early on how to 'deaden' the lead points (similar to how a carpenter deadens a nail to prevent it splitting the wood). This really limits deformation in the mag. I never fully got on board with flattening my tips, but over the years I gained affinity for the 180gr 'protected point' partitions as they come pre-flattened.

When it comes to bullet performance, target resistance can play a role. There is some difference between a 120lb doe and a 300lb buck. I don't have a lot of experience with other bullets because the partitions perform so reliably no matter what I'm shooting then into.

Gotta agree, inside 300yd, the 150 partition is hard to beat.

The advantage of the partition is that if you hit bone it will continue penetrating and most likely cause and exit wound.

 

[Hand Skills]

Yet soft enough that they still expand even when you slip one between the ribs...

Disadvantages;

-expensive
-not the most accurate bullets in my experience
-low BC's

If used inside 200yd (as per the OP) the last two points are immaterial.

My experience suggests shot placement is paramount, but if I was looking for boom-flop every time, inside 200 or 250yd the 358win with 225gr partitions is what I would reach for. Pretty emphatic even when placement or timing isn't perfect.

 

[LVJ76]

You are not the only one. My father has a similar attention to detail. He showed me pretty early on how to 'deaden' the lead points (similar to how a carpenter deadens a nail to prevent it splitting the wood). This really limits deformation in the mag. I never fully got on board with flattening my tips, but over the years I gained affinity for the 180gr 'protected point' partitions as they come pre-flattened.

When it comes to bullet performance, target resistance can play a role. There is some difference between a 120lb doe and a 300lb buck. I don't have a lot of experience with other bullets because the partitions perform so reliably no matter what I'm shooting then into.

Gotta agree, inside 300yd, the 150 partition is hard to beat.

The advantage of the partition is that if you hit bone it will continue penetrating and most likely cause and exit wound.

 

[simone]

With our bullets no ceiling for impact vel and an advertised 1800 fps min. When you have a bullet that can handle high vel impacts it changes your thinking. When you can set up a rifle with a bullet running 3500 fps or more it becomes a whole new world. Zero the rifle correctly and have a 500y hold hair big game rifle. Bullets will have no trouble with sub 100y shots and you don't have to worry about destroying the meat. Speed flat out kills.

With those velocities you will need to set up multiple rifles

 

[RichCoyle]

3,000 feet per second or faster.

 

[FEENIX]

All bullets have a preferred velocity range for performance based on their design and use.

As hunters, we should know the Maximum and minimum velocity recommended by the manufacture. If we go beyond these recommendations, bullet performance suffers.

If you use a bullet like the ballistic tip for thin skin game at the top end of it's velocity design chances are that it will perform like it was designed. If you use the same bullet for thick skinned game at those same high end velocities the chances are far less you will get good results.

The same goes for heavy bonded or mono metal bullets in reverse.
the heavy designed bullets will do good at high velocities on heavy game but may fail to expand on thin skin game.

What is needed is to first pick a bullet of sufficient weight and design for the game, and then find the velocity range of that bullet and stay within that range by limiting the distance with the velocities you will have.

Bullets have a wide range of recommended velocities so in my opinion there is no preferred velocity because of the many different designs.
Most bullets are within the 1800 to 2800 ft/sec impact velocity range and do well if chosen for the right game. Bullets that are designed for high velocity Need that velocity to perform. So if your impact velocity is near the bottom of their range because of the cartridges inability to reach those velocities,they may not perform as well.

Impact velocity is the most important velocity. Muzzle velocity is important only if you are very close to the game or shooting very long distances.

J E CUSTOM

So I think we can all agree that there is no one perfect velocity just like there is no golden bullet. There is a best impact velocity for each bullet depending on the distance and the game to be hunted.

To somewhat answer the OPs question, I generally want a bullet near the top of it's rated performance velocity. and in most cases like to stay around 2800 to 3000 ft/sec muzzle velocity and adjust the range accordingly. Most bullets will still work with less as long as they don't get much below 2000 ft/sec.

The More range that is needed, The More velocity needed to keep the impact velocity in the bullets performance range.

J E CUSTOM

I miss this kind of response from a noble and wise man. Thanks, Jerry, for sharing your knowledge and experience and always being willing and able to help. Your legacy continues ...

 

[asd9055]

I miss this kind of response from a noble and wise man. Thanks, Jerry, for sharing your knowledge and experience and always being willing and able to help. Your legacy continues ...

I miss him too. Even when we had differing opinions, we had great conversations.