CoSniper66
Well-Known Member
That number of rounds in a day seems exaggerated. They must miss a lot. 60 kills an hour would be a very fast pace. 100 kills in a day is a good day of PD shooting.
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Prairie Dog Rifle Question…
- Thread starter Flea21
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CoSniper66
Well-Known Member
As I said, they must miss a lot. I think my nephew attempted to shoot 1000 rounds a day with an AR. This did not impress us much.
Cryo good.
Nitride not good. (on target anyway)
Once I discovered what actually causes barrels to wear out, I understood why nitriding wasn't working to substantially increase barrel life on the same day.
Pressure. Expansion/contraction. That's what causes barrels to stop shooting well. The secondary variables that come afterward are many, but that is the main factor that causes them to stop functioning correctly.
Do not read into my statements and assume other aspects that I didn't address. Secondly, these aren't car parts, as you well know... so the car analogies/comparisons don't work when you consider the complexity of uniformly nitriding the inner diameter of a .243" or .224 or .284 bore that has intricate geometry. Nitriding something like a crank shaft, is infinitely easier. Any and all imperfections created by the process can be easily polished afterward, maintaining all of the good and eliminating the bad. This is not so for barrels. (at least not at the moment)
Correctly done nitriding, I have seen an increase in surface lubricity. (or reduction of friction, depending on which way you want to discuss the topic)
My experience on this is .284 and under. It is my understanding that nitride is being done with much success on .375 and up. Much easier to get treatment when you can move some fluid through a bigger hole.
Notable effects are less fouling, easier cleanup, and a touch more velocity, but that last part is very difficult to quantify.
However, actual barrel life? I'm not of that belief at the moment.
So far, the only real tangible thing that I've done to increase barrel life, is reduce pressure. If a guy runs in the low node, nice and predictable, getting 50+ firings on his brass... he's sure to have a TON of barrel life. Sometimes double or triple what the "internet" says he should. Conversely if he runs in the high node, getting a max of 5 firings on his brass... that barrel will be done quickly.
This fact is surely evidence of my hypothesis on what actually causes barrels to wear out. It may not be complete enough evidence for some, but it's complete enough for me.
There is a discussion to be had about the increased surface lubricity of nitride potentially reducing heat from the friction and subsequently reducing harmonic drift as a result of less heat, but I've not found the effect to be significant enough to be able to measure by any method to date. Again, this is another area best observed with large bores and solid bullets. The real issue is that until we can get truly uniform nitriding on a part that long and that constricted, and do so in a way that isn't counterintuitive to the cryo process... there won't be much in the way of benefit from nitride on the smaller diameter barrels. Even after, it does nothing for the pressure element of this. We have known for some time that increasing hardness isn't an automatic gain in ability to hold pressure. Were we to come up with a material that can take the pressure without expanding or contracting at all, and put the entire workload on the bullet... then it would be likely that we'd need to come up with entirely new propellent... or at the very least completely new combinations. As it is the "give" in these systems that tends to allow everything to work for us. When that expansion/contraction hardens the barrel enough, that behavior ceases and we see a dramatic reduction in performance.
Obviously it goes without saying that all of the variables are amplified as we go down in diameter and down in powder volume. While the effects of owning a prometheus might not be seen on a 375 cheytac... they are very notable on a small cal with a small capacity. Such is true of all variables everywhere in the system. What works for the big, often doesn't work with the small.
Anyway, thanks for the prompting to share my thoughts on this. There will be no consensus or positive momentum on a topic this complex in a space such as this.
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Nitride not good. (on target anyway)
Once I discovered what actually causes barrels to wear out, I understood why nitriding wasn't working to substantially increase barrel life on the same day.
Pressure. Expansion/contraction. That's what causes barrels to stop shooting well. The secondary variables that come afterward are many, but that is the main factor that causes them to stop functioning correctly.
Do not read into my statements and assume other aspects that I didn't address. Secondly, these aren't car parts, as you well know... so the car analogies/comparisons don't work when you consider the complexity of uniformly nitriding the inner diameter of a .243" or .224 or .284 bore that has intricate geometry. Nitriding something like a crank shaft, is infinitely easier. Any and all imperfections created by the process can be easily polished afterward, maintaining all of the good and eliminating the bad. This is not so for barrels. (at least not at the moment)
Correctly done nitriding, I have seen an increase in surface lubricity. (or reduction of friction, depending on which way you want to discuss the topic)
My experience on this is .284 and under. It is my understanding that nitride is being done with much success on .375 and up. Much easier to get treatment when you can move some fluid through a bigger hole.
Notable effects are less fouling, easier cleanup, and a touch more velocity, but that last part is very difficult to quantify.
However, actual barrel life? I'm not of that belief at the moment.
So far, the only real tangible thing that I've done to increase barrel life, is reduce pressure. If a guy runs in the low node, nice and predictable, getting 50+ firings on his brass... he's sure to have a TON of barrel life. Sometimes double or triple what the "internet" says he should. Conversely if he runs in the high node, getting a max of 5 firings on his brass... that barrel will be done quickly.
This fact is surely evidence of my hypothesis on what actually causes barrels to wear out. It may not be complete enough evidence for some, but it's complete enough for me.
There is a discussion to be had about the increased surface lubricity of nitride potentially reducing heat from the friction and subsequently reducing harmonic drift as a result of less heat, but I've not found the effect to be significant enough to be able to measure by any method to date. Again, this is another area best observed with large bores and solid bullets. The real issue is that until we can get truly uniform nitriding on a part that long and that constricted, and do so in a way that isn't counterintuitive to the cryo process... there won't be much in the way of benefit from nitride on the smaller diameter barrels. Even after, it does nothing for the pressure element of this. We have known for some time that increasing hardness isn't an automatic gain in ability to hold pressure. Were we to come up with a material that can take the pressure without expanding or contracting at all, and put the entire workload on the bullet... then it would be likely that we'd need to come up with entirely new propellent... or at the very least completely new combinations. As it is the "give" in these systems that tends to allow everything to work for us. When that expansion/contraction hardens the barrel enough, that behavior ceases and we see a dramatic reduction in performance.
Obviously it goes without saying that all of the variables are amplified as we go down in diameter and down in powder volume. While the effects of owning a prometheus might not be seen on a 375 cheytac... they are very notable on a small cal with a small capacity. Such is true of all variables everywhere in the system. What works for the big, often doesn't work with the small.
Anyway, thanks for the prompting to share my thoughts on this. There will be no consensus or positive momentum on a topic this complex in a space such as this.
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CoSniper66
Well-Known Member
I have a Savage 223 that has survived 15 years of Dog shooting and 300 yrd match shooting, rounds count unknown but probably over 5K. It has .500" freebore now, but still shoots .625" at 100. My 22-250 was shot out at 2500 rounds and is on its 2nd barrel. Throat is rough but it still shoots .5 moa.
Hugnot
Well-Known Member
Nitriding - read about it:
en.wikipedia.org
Sounds good but probably beyond the scope of most barrel makers. Nitriding is done to increase surface hardness, increase resistance to wear & increase stress resistance. Using stainless steel would increase resistance to corrosion/erosion (chem reactions) the rate of which increases with heat. The degree of thermal expansion as shown by dimensional measurements would be problematic to determine. Stainless steel has low thermal expansion compared to other metals.
I have shot 6 or more plastic boxes (50 rounds each) at small rodents, gophers & prairie dogs per 14-hour day, 25-30 per hour. Things get real hot & erosion may be expected. Before realization, the barrel gets so hot it can't be touched & there are only 3-4 rounds left in was a full 50 round box.
My solution is to use 3-4 rifles (sort of like a ballistic fest). I commonly use a .20P, .204R, or .223 for volume shooting; these rifles have well over 1,500 each & still shoot well enough. My .20P is about 10 years old with 1800 plus still looks & shoots good. For selective slow shooting I like the .22-.250, fast 7.7 twist with 75 ELDM bullets, 243W, 6mm CM, or 6mm AI all with 87 Vmax bullets.
I like to change rifles after 50 - 100 rounds - fill the bore with foam cleaner - a hot barrel increases chem reaction rate of bore cleaner - then finish cleaning when bore cooled. Draping a wet towel over barrel helps. Having a free float barrel with a gap wide enough for 2 layers of wet paper towel speeds up cooling. Certain powders like CFE contain tin or other metals that bond with copper wash/fouling to keep barrels cleaner. A blast of cool moist air thru bore would sure cool stuff down.
Nitriding - Wikipedia
Sounds good but probably beyond the scope of most barrel makers. Nitriding is done to increase surface hardness, increase resistance to wear & increase stress resistance. Using stainless steel would increase resistance to corrosion/erosion (chem reactions) the rate of which increases with heat. The degree of thermal expansion as shown by dimensional measurements would be problematic to determine. Stainless steel has low thermal expansion compared to other metals.
I have shot 6 or more plastic boxes (50 rounds each) at small rodents, gophers & prairie dogs per 14-hour day, 25-30 per hour. Things get real hot & erosion may be expected. Before realization, the barrel gets so hot it can't be touched & there are only 3-4 rounds left in was a full 50 round box.
My solution is to use 3-4 rifles (sort of like a ballistic fest). I commonly use a .20P, .204R, or .223 for volume shooting; these rifles have well over 1,500 each & still shoot well enough. My .20P is about 10 years old with 1800 plus still looks & shoots good. For selective slow shooting I like the .22-.250, fast 7.7 twist with 75 ELDM bullets, 243W, 6mm CM, or 6mm AI all with 87 Vmax bullets.
I like to change rifles after 50 - 100 rounds - fill the bore with foam cleaner - a hot barrel increases chem reaction rate of bore cleaner - then finish cleaning when bore cooled. Draping a wet towel over barrel helps. Having a free float barrel with a gap wide enough for 2 layers of wet paper towel speeds up cooling. Certain powders like CFE contain tin or other metals that bond with copper wash/fouling to keep barrels cleaner. A blast of cool moist air thru bore would sure cool stuff down.
Bucklowery
Well-Known Member
Thank you.Cryo good.
Nitride not good. (on target anyway)
Once I discovered what actually causes barrels to wear out, I understood why nitriding wasn't working to substantially increase barrel life on the same day.
Pressure. Expansion/contraction. That's what causes barrels to stop shooting well. The secondary variables that come afterward are many, but that is the main factor that causes them to stop functioning correctly.
Do not read into my statements and assume other aspects that I didn't address. Secondly, these aren't car parts, as you well know... so the car analogies/comparisons don't work when you consider the complexity of uniformly nitriding the inner diameter of a .243" or .224 or .284 bore that has intricate geometry. Nitriding something like a crank shaft, is infinitely easier. Any and all imperfections created by the process can be easily polished afterward, maintaining all of the good and eliminating the bad. This is not so for barrels. (at least not at the moment)
Correctly done nitriding, I have seen an increase in surface lubricity. (or reduction of friction, depending on which way you want to discuss the topic)
My experience on this is .284 and under. It is my understanding that nitride is being done with much success on .375 and up. Much easier to get treatment when you can move some fluid through a bigger hole.
Notable effects are less fouling, easier cleanup, and a touch more velocity, but that last part is very difficult to quantify.
However, actual barrel life? I'm not of that belief at the moment.
So far, the only real tangible thing that I've done to increase barrel life, is reduce pressure. If a guy runs in the low node, nice and predictable, getting 50+ firings on his brass... he's sure to have a TON of barrel life. Sometimes double or triple what the "internet" says he should. Conversely if he runs in the high node, getting a max of 5 firings on his brass... that barrel will be done quickly.
This fact is surely evidence of my hypothesis on what actually causes barrels to wear out. It may not be complete enough evidence for some, but it's complete enough for me.
There is a discussion to be had about the increased surface lubricity of nitride potentially reducing heat from the friction and subsequently reducing harmonic drift as a result of less heat, but I've not found the effect to be significant enough to be able to measure by any method to date. Again, this is another area best observed with large bores and solid bullets. The real issue is that until we can get truly uniform nitriding on a part that long and that constricted, and do so in a way that isn't counterintuitive to the cryo process... there won't be much in the way of benefit from nitride on the smaller diameter barrels. Even after, it does nothing for the pressure element of this. We have known for some time that increasing hardness isn't an automatic gain in ability to hold pressure. Were we to come up with a material that can take the pressure without expanding or contracting at all, and put the entire workload on the bullet... then it would be likely that we'd need to come up with entirely new propellent... or at the very least completely new combinations. As it is the "give" in these systems that tends to allow everything to work for us. When that expansion/contraction hardens the barrel enough, that behavior ceases and we see a dramatic reduction in performance.
Obviously it goes without saying that all of the variables are amplified as we go down in diameter and down in powder volume. While the effects of owning a prometheus might not be seen on a 375 cheytac... they are very notable on a small cal with a small capacity. Such is true of all variables everywhere in the system. What works for the big, often doesn't work with the small.
Anyway, thanks for the prompting to share my thoughts on this. There will be no consensus or positive momentum on a topic this complex in a space such as this.
-----------
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Subscribe on YouTube
Amazon Affiliate
An in-depth comment is always of supreme value.
The expansion contraction- wholeheartedly agree.
Whole heartedly agree with the "detail" in a barrel as compared to a lifter face.
My thought about the crankshaft is the treated vs untreated in bearing failure.
I find your discussion refreshing- I do find objective observation on a complex system valuable- at times invaluable. Hard data offered in micron segments is not always an easily obtainable goal nor is confirming a performance over 1000's of rounds. Interestingly, I just came off a forum (kicked off for a month) in which objective evidence - your "experience"- was totally shot down (could not even respond).
Thank you for a truly open forum.
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CoSniper66
Well-Known Member
My nephew tried to fire 1000 rounds a day with an AR as a kid, didn't hit much though. Claims like that are always, I'll believe it when I see it. I've been shooting dogs for 20 years, I call BS.
Hugnot
Well-Known Member
The nitriding process is surface or case hardening, increasing wear & fatigue resistance. My guess is that elastic properties would be unchanged.
Last edited:
Chrome Lining vs. Salt Bath Nitriding: Which Barrel Finish Is Better? - Criterion Barrels
One of the most frequently asked questions by shooters pertains to the difference between our barrels with chrome lining and salt bath nitriding.
criterionbarrels.com
Garry J
Well-Known Member
Did you ever shoot a town that was a full section and had enough grass to support 1 cow and calf. The only thing that would interfere with the shooting was an Eagle overhead. I would never drive to Colorado to shoot 150 to 200 a day. I could stay home and shoot Hesped cotton rats Or Richardson ground squirrels With my pellet gun in the 91 Acres behind the house. On a Sunday I shoot a 160 rounds in around an hour and a 1/2 shooting silhouettes.
CoSniper66
Well-Known Member
I live in Colorado and have been on the
elusive town that has never been shot in May when the pups are just out. It is fast action. We shoot for 4 full days and average 350 rounds a day. Kill percentage is probably 65 to 70 percent.
I shoot steel challenge weekly in the summer, tactical rifle matches, and 600 yrd precision field rifle matches too. I go through a lot of ammo.
Those awesome dog towns are only that good once, the next time it's much slower
The next year it's also not as populated
comfisherman
Well-Known Member
I probably invert your hit percentage.... explains the ammo difference...
HRM Johnny
Well-Known Member
Thanks for this!Chrome Lining vs. Salt Bath Nitriding: Which Barrel Finish Is Better? - Criterion Barrels
One of the most frequently asked questions by shooters pertains to the difference between our barrels with chrome lining and salt bath nitriding.
