Prairie Dog Rifle Question…

[lgwatson]

I recently upgraded my 22-250 to a 22 Creedmoor. I was strongly thinking about getting into prairie dog hunting. My question is, how often do y'all go through barrels? It seems like some guys shoot 800-1000rds in a day hunting PDs and I'm pretty sure at that rate a barrel would be close to toast after a couple days or so… am I wrong? If if I'm right though, this may be a more expensive idea than I originally thought! LoL

I've had good results with .223 Remington, 6X47Lapua, 6BRA, 22BR and .243 AI. The .243AI is a barrel burner. I try not to overheat the barrels. If I shoot 100-150 rounds in a day I'm satisfied.

 

[tacomHQ]

I subscribe to the "small arsenal" method also. At least 1 each 22 caliber rifles. 22 mag, .223 and 22-250 for incrementally longer shots. 55 gr V-max in .223 and 22-250. And one 6MM rifle for over 500 yds, mine is 6 CM right now and a favorite.

I tend to stick to the same calibers as I stock up on reloading components and equipment. Loads from barrel to barrel remain very close with little work to develop new loads.

10-15 single feed shots per rifle then switch.

I like to range and dial each shot to the specific distance or shoot off of the reticle. I often hold the "whole numbers" on the reticle and dial the remainder. It is the best practice ever for large game and short time window shots.

Set all my triggers to same weight and scopes with as close as reasonable MOA turret/reticle setups.

A different take:
This is a .223 shooting a 90gr A-Max 2783. A PRS rig.
My focus- of course - is the structured barrel:
High string count: we don't see group migration on a 6mm until after 40+rounds.
Extremely forgiving load development: ladder test are only really used for SD. Bullet jump for pressure.
Nearly zero heat mirage off of the barrel.
Typically much higher round count for life.
Low SD drift.
It is a radiator- typically 3-450% more surface area. The chamber is the coolest point on the barrel.
After shooting peak heat is reached in 2-3minutes then drops- as seen on mil FLIR.
The rifle shown uses one zero for 100yds and he just changes Kestrel values for the bullet and new velocity for different ammo. He finds (and others) essentially no zero impact shifts with load changes.
By keeping the barrel cooler the life value is increased.
This can be rapidly cooled with fans or Brake Clean - shooting down the vents will rapid cool these barrels.
Exterior coatings can be used to reduce heat/sun soak while still cooling as fast as a "bare" barrel.
This sport is why we build these barrels. Many/most will say I will never shoot more than 3-5rounds- except for PRS, ELR, Mil and Prairie Dog shooters.
While most guns stop shooting their transonic value at 7-10rds (300Norma 1600meters) we are still shooting 15-20rds later.
50 round groups are a standard test.
Our 300Norma is north of 1800rds, 260Rem 2000+ rounds and we have a 6mm running around with 4000+rounds. You would be shocked to see the throats..
Just a different point of view.

 

[Hydra6]

A different take:
This is a .223 shooting a 90gr A-Max 2783. A PRS rig.
My focus- of course - is the structured barrel:
High string count: we don't see group migration on a 6mm until after 40+rounds.
Extremely forgiving load development: ladder test are only really used for SD. Bullet jump for pressure.
Nearly zero heat mirage off of the barrel.
Typically much higher round count for life.
Low SD drift.
It is a radiator- typically 3-450% more surface area. The chamber is the coolest point on the barrel.
After shooting peak heat is reached in 2-3minutes then drops- as seen on mil FLIR.
The rifle shown uses one zero for 100yds and he just changes Kestrel values for the bullet and new velocity for different ammo. He finds (and others) essentially no zero impact shifts with load changes.
By keeping the barrel cooler the life value is increased.
This can be rapidly cooled with fans or Brake Clean - shooting down the vents will rapid cool these barrels.
Exterior coatings can be used to reduce heat/sun soak while still cooling as fast as a "bare" barrel.
This sport is why we build these barrels. Many/most will say I will never shoot more than 3-5rounds- except for PRS, ELR, Mil and Prairie Dog shooters.
While most guns stop shooting their transonic value at 7-10rds (300Norma 1600meters) we are still shooting 15-20rds later.
50 round groups are a standard test.
Our 300Norma is north of 1800rds, 260Rem 2000+ rounds and we have a 6mm running around with 4000+rounds. You would be shocked to see the throats..
Just a different point of view.

What twist are you using with the 90 A Tips in 223? What powder? Thanks

 

[tacomHQ]

What twist are you using with the 90 A Tips in 223? What powder? Thanks

6.5T ... after that the shooter is a bit quiet... Though he notes this is the only combo that they have found to successfully shoot this round. He might be being careful with the info due to pressure/velocity value being executed.

 

[orkan]

Did the heavy .223rem thing a whole bunch.

Good... but compared to a .22 BRA... or even the .20's shooting 55's, not good enough. However, if a guy could find really cheap factory ammo loaded with heavies that shot well, still has value.

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[JFCurl]

If I were building a 22CM, I would look hard at having it melonite/nitrided.

 

[orkan]

If I were building a 22CM, I would look hard at having it melonite/nitrided.

The nitriding shops are not consistent enough.

I'll just replace the barrel rather than dealing with the added cost and inconsistencies of nitride.

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[Garry J]

It could be a bit pricey with the 338 LM; even reloading isn't much cheaper. Still the impact would be spectacular.

Try pill bottles loaded with tanerite and peanut butter on the outside.. wait

Try pill bottles loaded with tanerite and peanut butter on the outside.. wait for few to start nibbling!

If I were building a 22CM, I would look hard at having it melonite/nitrided.

If I were building a 22CM, I would look hard at having it melonite/nitrided.

I have had hundreds of cams and crankshaft nitride in a salt bath. They also did pistol frames for a major gun manufacturer. The place I used was next to TRW VALVE in Severelle Tennessee but they appear to be out of business and federal mobile has taken over the building. The nitriding I belive you would want to use is a gas process. This is what is normally used for aircraft cams and cranks. I never found nitride parts to be of a poor quality. I sent parts to testing lad regularly for quality control. Never had a problem. We Remand for major manufacturers, auto, farm, marine.

 

[Garry J]

I have had hundreds of cams and crankshaft nitride in a salt bath. They also did pistol frames for a major gun manufacturer. The place I used was next to TRW VALVE in Severelle Tennessee but they appear to be out of business and federal mobile has taken over the building. The nitriding I belive you would want to use is a gas process. This is what is normally used for aircraft cams and cranks. I never found nitride parts to be of a poor quality. I sent parts to testing lad regularly for quality control.

You may also wanna look at the process of cryogenicing you're Barrel. This process I have used on Tooling and also engine parts to significantly increase part life. I've been told the NASCAR uses this process In all engines? and I know for a fact Arnold Palmer used it on his golf clubs and they claim it made the club drive farther. ?
I converted diesel engines to run on well head gas with generators attach for the oil field and landfills. My head had severe valve problems but after Cryogenicing problems were solved.

 

[orkan]

I wonder how many of you have spent time with nitride barrels?

Lots of theories sound good. In practice they fall flat.

It isn't surface hardness that would elongate a barrels life.

 

[dirtclod]

"Try pill bottles loaded with tanerite and peanut butter on the outside.. wait for a few to start nibbling!"


You bad!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[HRM Johnny]

I can say what it looks like when hit with a 300wsm 150g ballistic tip but it would not do it justice

I would love to see video of that. Any chance?

 

[tacomHQ]

You may also wanna look at the process of cryogenicing you're Barrel. This process I have used on Tooling and also engine parts to significantly increase part life. I've been told the NASCAR uses this process In all engines? and I know for a fact Arnold Palmer used it on his golf clubs and they claim it made the club drive farther. ?
I converted diesel engines to run on well head gas with generators attach for the oil field and landfills. My head had severe valve problems but after Cryogenicing problems were solved.

We cryo all of our barrels:
a) reduced stress
b) more consistent machining processes
c) harmonically superior
d) surface toughness is theoretically improved due to realignment of the base structure
If it did not work- automotive manufacturers would drop it in a split second due to costs. Every pump gear made most likely passes thru this process.
Why for us- we used to work with tooling that had to be tuned. This tooling was under significant stress and would fracture with non-treated steel. Fracture- as in split a piece of D2 hardened tool steel that weighed 64lbs. Split it or lift off attachment surfaces.
We took two pieces of D2- consecutive bar pieces- turned and ground the ends.
Both standard heat treat.
One cryo the other not treated.
We then took a wire EDM and sliced a wafer off of the D2 (4" diameter) the wafer slice was .030" thick.
The non treated part potato chipped severely. As I recall over .040".
The treated unit produced a wafer that remained flat.
This would indicate that a piece of steel will retain its base "shape" better/longer during subsequent machining processes.
It also - in our case- made the material more stable as temperatures rise.
Nodes move with temperature. If the barrel starts to heat, bend, nodes move accuracy drops.
As a note for the engineers out there- the component we were producing had to survive a use factor over 3600x of standard use. Small factors start to count.
For those who don't believe harmonics effect accuracy - there is still a gain in toughness of the material.
NOTE: there are some companies who claim cryo processing at -125deg - that is not true cryo.
NOTE: using general terms for description.

 

[tacomHQ]

I wonder how many of you have spent time with nitride barrels?

Lots of theories sound good. In practice they fall flat.

It isn't surface hardness that would elongate a barrels life.

Interesting: this is not an argument. A search for performance.

How can lack of or improved hardness of a bore not effect life? Not the same application but- Chromed liner barrels?
Could part of the failure be bad surface prep or contamination of the barrel?
Does any one know the Ra value of the interior of a barrel? I know we can still see drill marks on reamed, hand lapped barrels (not saying that is bad) therefore a nitride process with minimal depth will fail. Catastrophically.
Most surfaces considered for nitride have a "mirror" finish- lobes, lifter faces etc... If you were born before the late 90's and drove a car/truck chances are they had flat tappet lifters. Most likely most every oil pump gear (localized contact) is nitrided. I certainly know my $3000 crank shafts are LOL.
If the hardening process does not go below the surface roughness and peaks/valleys, does not go below sub-surface damage - it will fail.
Subsurface damage in a barrel would be where a secondary process "folds" over covering a "valley". On brittle materials it could be a "stress" fracture- glass and ceramics having high performance objectives (etching or laser) have to have these features removed.
We will be testing this theory with bores deep nitrided (>.010) with hardness values over 70rc. Our source data shows much higher life.
A theory- we want it to succeed. If it does not then it means barrels move farther down the line as a component that can be successfully "nitrided".