Powders available at hodgdon com

[lyle2231]

To relate experience....The rifle club I belong to purchased a pallet of bullets from the manufacturer and had it drop shipped.
I wonder if Hodgdon would do the same? Or a group within 60 miles of each other on this forum would pool purchases to palletize the buy. Qualify the buy to 8 lb bottles only.
Just thinking out loud.

 

[jack_fairservice@gridtech]

This is intentional. Dealers are already complaining about not getting enough inventory. Hodgdon wants to cash in on the extra margin by selling direct but doesn't want to loose the wholesale support when the "craze" is over so they tell the dealer, "were going to sell it direct, but we won't compete with you on price." This is how it starts.....eventually most it will be sold direct to consumer via their e-commerce platform and they their wholesale business will shrink to just shelf inventory.

Hodgden will make a lot more margin (and hopefully re-invest it) and the local dealers wont care cause they'll continue to stock what they always have. The wholesale ecommerce guys (Powder Valley, Midway, Brownells, Mid South, Creedmoore, etc) are the ones that will get killed if it goes this direction.

I've been a part of a lot of these conversations in my professional career....they're aren't fun and its typically the consumer that looses in the long run. Its not a great scenerio if a "brand" has too much control of their distribution. The exceptions would be brands like Kuiu that only distribute direct to consumer, but its really hard to do it if you have an established wholesale business.

None of the powders i was interested in was available at Hodgdon. In fact, it was difficult to see availability of anything without drilling down on a specific product. No backorders.

 

[joseytoo]

Maybe this is part of a larger scheme to consolidate buyers into a smaller and more concise database? Much easier to track that way. Guess I have become very wary and cynical in this recent environment of governmental control of our hobby and Constitutional Rights.

 

[lhp63190]

To an extent....in a previous post I pointed out "Hodgdon is bound by fair trade laws and would be sued for price gouging vs a private sale asking whatever the market will demand" Plus Hodgdon is going to ask for a bit more per unit just to ensure they don't burn their distributors so that they may continue to sell at previous crisis prices.

In other words, we laws to protect consumers from predatory business practices but not private sales.

Agreed on fair trade but I'm looking at it via a long term scenario outside of demand spikes. I've been a part of 3 companies with traditional wholesale businesses (2 in the shooting sports industry) that launched direct to consumer sales via their own website.

In all three, the common theme was that they didn't see value in ecommerce based resellers. They did see value in the "shelf business" in stores. They would all like to keep their shelf business but start pulling the ecommerce transactions in house. Note: it rarely works this way as the guys who do both shelf and ecommerce pitch a fit. At each company, this resulted in substantially reduced competition and substantially increased pricing over time. I'm not talking gouging ( current market) but I am talking about price increases 2-3x inflation on a annualized basis under "normal conditions".

 

[Gus Avocado]

THe other thing it does is drive traffic to the Hodgden site, which has a number of other good resources that they are hoping you will use. When the availability crisis is over, hopefully these people will keep coming to the site for reloading data and articles. The extra 5 bucks will get Midway customers back to Midway, and they will be Midway/Hodgden customers. At least that's the plan. The higher margins will build cash on hand that will help them weather the storm when the hoarders have full closets and things are back on the shelf. Primers are the key, and Hodgden knows that there will be a time when they will not be selling much powder until primers catch up. Powder is loosening up, even on store shelves now and then at Academy and Cabelas. The price of primers on the secondary is still climbing, selling for $30/100 (not a typo, $.30/ea) at the last gun show in town. And they were selling. I've had people beg me to sell them primers at $20/100. There will always be a place for retail powder sales due to hazmat and shipping fees, and serious loaders and shooters will always hit up Powder Valley, Grice, and Midway and the like because they need things besides powder and primers. And they buy enough powder and primers to spread the hazmat fee out, and a few buddies go in on a shipment to help. I suspect things will return to a new normal that will look a lot like the old one, once primers catch up.

 

[MAD10]

Agreed on fair trade but I'm looking at it via a long term scenario outside of demand spikes. I've been a part of 3 companies with traditional wholesale businesses (2 in the shooting sports industry) that launched direct to consumer sales via their own website.

In all three, the common theme was that they didn't see value in ecommerce based resellers. They did see value in the "shelf business" in stores. They would all like to keep their shelf business but start pulling the ecommerce transactions in house. Note: it rarely works this way as the guys who do both shelf and ecommerce pitch a fit. At each company, this resulted in substantially reduced competition and substantially increased pricing over time. I'm not talking gouging ( current market) but I am talking about price increases 2-3x inflation on a annualized basis under "normal cond

playing devils advocate here....so if a company decides they want to make more profit and cut out the middle man > that is a crime against the consumer? What if the company needed to do that and raise prices to reorganize and buy more equipment to satisfy the higher demand they will see by having less distributors and will need more employees to get the product to the consumer and store fronts? Sure, this is turning into a theory based comment with virtually a never ending "what if's" lol

 

[Glenn Tullius]

It can't possibly be cheaper buying direct with tax, shipping and hazmat can it? for any size? I rarely buy a 8#er. If I bought 3#s of mixed? Hazmat alone wouldn't be cheaper.

 

[Gus Avocado]

It can't possibly be cheaper buying direct with tax, shipping and hazmat can it? for any size? I rarely buy a 8#er. If I bought 3#s of mixed? Hazmat alone wouldn't be cheaper.

This is where your local shop will come back into play once supplies are back up. Problem now is that locals can't get enough product to make their shipping pay off yet. Once the ppeline is full again, Hodgden will make the powder and sell some online for a slightly higher price, local will sell a pound at a time for a slightly higher price but will be cheaper for small purchasers not to pay hazmat, and Midway and the rest of the big sellers will push to expand the hobby by being a one stop shop. Many people (like me) wait until they need a few things before buying so they can combine shipping. I'll buy bullets, powder, and maybe a new seating stem or plastic boxes at once. Hodgden wants Midway to be enthusiastic about their product, and promote it. They won't leave the retailers high and dry, because if they do then Midway can just push other powders.

By the way, Glenn, you got a real nice Apple Fest up there.

 

[lhp63190]

playing devils advocate here....so if a company decides they want to make more profit and cut out the middle man > that is a crime against the consumer? What if the company needed to do that and raise prices to reorganize and buy more equipment to satisfy the higher demand they will see by having less distributors and will need more employees to get the product to the consumer and store fronts? Sure, this is turning into a theory based comment with virtually a never ending "what if's" lol

MAD10 -- I would actually really enjoy having this convo with you over an adult beverage sometime. You're correct, there are a bunch of never ending "what if's" especially as it relates to ecommerce as it's an continually developing marketplace.

That being said, I've been through this 3x times. In most cases, cutting out the middle man is highly influenced by CFO's and CEO's with no real relationship with the consumers or the resellers. In my case, I've been the guy sitting across the table from Cabelas, Walmart, Mom & Pops, Midway, Scheels, etc trying to explain corporate decisions....and it sucks bc its usually B.S.

Is it a crime...NO. And, in some cases, there is genuine reinvestment that happens. In others, it just means larger executive bonuses. Once the suppliers realize they can set the top of market pricepoints and control supply, other resellers chase price up just enough to stay just below the direct pricepoints based on supply availability vs chasing price down when they have lots of inventory and they are competing with other resellers (under normal market condition). IMO, consumers lose this battle.

I've loved this convo and I'll be interested to see how this affects the market going forward. For now, I still encourage everybody to build those local "Mom & Pop" dealer relationship and it will help you a ton when the "next" crisis hits....and it will hit.

 

[ajkellerusmc]

Glad I bought up plenty when obama was in power. The only thing I'm somewhat short on is projectiles.

 

[Gone Ballistic]

We're going to be stuck with these high prices on everything from powder to lumber as long as people keep buying at current prices. We all need to stop buying and let supplies catch up with demand and get prices back to reasonable levels.

 

[Onstep]

MAD10 -- I would actually really enjoy having this convo with you over an adult beverage sometime. You're correct, there are a bunch of never ending "what if's" especially as it relates to ecommerce as it's an continually developing marketplace.

That being said, I've been through this 3x times. In most cases, cutting out the middle man is highly influenced by CFO's and CEO's with no real relationship with the consumers or the resellers. In my case, I've been the guys sitting across the table from Cabelas, Walmart, Mom & Pops, Midway, Scheels, etc trying to explain corporate decisions....and it sucks bc its usually B.S.

Is it a crime...NO. And, in some cases, there is genuine reinvestment that happens. In others, it just means larger executive bonuses. Once the suppliers realize they can set the top of market pricepoints and control supply, other resellers chase price up just enough to stay just below the direct pricepoints based on supply availability vs chasing price down when they have lots of inventory and they are competing with other resellers (under normal market condition). IMO, consumers lose this battle.

I've loved this convo and I'll be interested to see how this affects the market going forward. For now, I still encourage everybody to build those local "Mom & Pop" dealer relationship and it will help you a ton when the "next" crisis hits....and it will hit.

This X 1000%....
I would argue these online retailers concern manufacturers in the large swings in sales volume from year to year. Traditional brick and motor stores offer a steadier model to forecast from. This is can't be overlooked in such a regulated and controlled item like powder and primers.
Bottom-line a DTC model is unproven over the long term and while certain market segments like soft goods (KUIU) appear to be healthy let's give it another decade or 2. Meanwhile, I'll support my locally owned buy group or independent supplier.

 

[Gunnuts]

One thing to think about is powder is not the only thing supplementing the distributor. Powder is the main income for the powder companies.

 

[lhp63190]

This X 1000%....
I would argue these online retailers concern manufacturers in the large swings in sales volume from year to year. Traditional brick and motor stores offer a steadier model to forecast from. This is can't be overlooked in such a regulated and controlled item like powder and primers.
Bottom-line a DTC model is unproven over the long term and while certain market segments like soft goods (KUIU) appear to be healthy let's give it another decade or 2. Meanwhile, I'll support my locally owned buy group or independent supplier.

Agreed....and based on my experience, executives often assume (often incorrectly) that consumers don't have the same loyalty towards online retailers as they do brick and morter.