Polishing a body die?

[Bart B]

You may shoot all the small moa at practice but for some reason you can't shot them at a match and in a LR hunting rifle first shot counts. That's all I got to say.

Well, neither can anyone else shoot groups off their shoulder slung up in any position the size of ther test groups. We've got a heart pumping blood that quivers muscles holding our bones supporting the rifle. It's gonna have a 3/4 MOA area on target were its aiming point bounces around in. Most of the time a shot's got off somewhere inside that "wobble" area. Don't long range hunters have a heart, too?

Then our bodies are not as repeatable in position and resistance to recoil from shot to shot as free recoiling benchrest rifles virtually untouched by humans; that adds another 1/2 MOA error or more. And, with metallic sights, we cannot see subtle wind changes as easy as with a scope; that adds another 1/2 MOA of error. Add all these to a rifle and ammo test group size.

Anyone who thinks folks can shoot rifles off their shoulder without artifical support as accurate as they do in free recoil is ignorant of the real limits of marksmanship afield. Take a look at last year's Nationals' scores in high power rifle matches listed in this link:

NRA Competitive Shooting Programs|NRA National Outdoor Rifle & Pistol Championships Results

Pay close attention to the winners and high master's scores. Few scores shot 600 yards and further are perfect with at least 80% of the shots in the X rings (6" at 600, 10" at further ranges) with special attention to the 1000 yard ones; those shot inside 2 MOA.

I don't think any long range competitor can put more than 10% of their first shots at a known range past 600 yards into a 1 MOA circle. What percentage of the long range hunters do that at an unknown range without a previously established zero at the site?

 

[Bart B]

20 rounds in 3.325 inches at 800 yards

That was done shooting a Palma rifle slung up in prone with bags under the stock's fore end and toe. A 20X target scope was used. Wobble area on paper was somewhat under an inch. Not what's typical in a Palma match using metallic sights.

 

[TOM H]

TOM H what does bench rest shooting have to do with long range hunting? What does shooting a 60-80 lb rail gun at a target have to do with long range hunting? Barts discipline of shooting 600-800-1000 yards with a sling and open sights has a heck of a lot more to do with field shooting than bench rest any day. Until you can put 20 rounds in 3.325 inches at 800 yards like Bart has then maybe I'll listen to you, until then I think I'll listen to Bart as I know he is very knowledgeable and has helped me with a lot of reloading questions by just reading his posts.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.guns/iL7zv-cktJc/Uow_LL-o2dwJ

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Bart's never put 20rd in 3.325" group at F-Class match that I know of and if he did he have world record score which would be 200-20x. this is what a record score look like 200-13x it's still a 20" group.

I've never shot a 1000yd BR match or a rail gun and all I do is shooting few hunting rifles plus few varmint rifles. Just so you understand something I'm not saying anything I won't say to Bart in person so I'm not talking to hear myself talk and rest assured Bart knows that.

 

[bigngreen]

I don't think any long range competitor can put more than 10% of their first shots at a known range past 600 yards into a 1 MOA circle. What percentage of the long range hunters do that at an unknown range without a previously established zero at the site?

Bart, I've watched many times guys who would not set foot at a competition put rounds well inside 1 moa well beyond a 1000 yards cold bore then proceed to repeat the process and from a rifle that is easily hunted with. I can't count the times I've seen first round cold bore round put on target at a thousand yards under half MOA. My buddy put 6 rounds inside five inches at 1030 yards, one cold bore shot per week from a 12lb 338 RUM of the ground, his antelope last year took a bullet at just under a 1000 yards within 2 inches of his aim point right above the heart, I called the wind for him.

This is Long Range Hunting, we shoot for that cold bore nuts on shot which is a completely different discipline and skill set it's just unfortunate your already to good to learn this skill.

You are so set that no one can shoot as good as you did one time in your life that you've stopped looking around and learning so you hunt people down that do indeed shoot better than you do and try to find loop holes and invent ways to make sure no one can ever shoot as good as that one group.

 

[Bart B]

Bart's never put 20rd in 3.325" group at F-Class match that I know of

As I've told you before, I've never shot an F-Class match. I was just testing that rifle and ammo.

Bart, I've watched many times guys who would not set foot at a competition put rounds well inside 1 moa well beyond a 1000 yards cold bore then proceed to repeat the process and from a rifle that is easily hunted with.

I've seen long range competitors do the same thing many times at 1000 with their first shot, but no more than 10% of them.

 

[Bullet bumper]

This is Long Range Hunting, we shoot for that cold bore nuts on shot which is a completely different discipline and skill set it's just unfortunate your already to good to learn this skill.

.

Well said , I have to pay that comment .

Dam I wish I had said that.

 

[bigngreen]

Well, all that proves is that they should not hunt at long range because they have not developed the skills to cold bore shoot at those ranges!

Just because you won't learn to cold bore shoot at a higher percentage does not mean that a lot of others can't who are still able to learn.

 

[Bart B]

Are all these long range hunters putting their first shot at a target at least 600 yards and have the bullet strike within 1/2 MOA of the desired impact point without any external artificial support?

No bipods, pads, or any thing holding or supporting the rifle except human extremedies that may be stabilized with a sling?

Note that in high power competition, most strings of fire at targets that far away are shot with metallic sights; no scopes allowed.

 

[TOM H]

Are all these long range hunters putting their first shot at a target at least 600 yards and have the bullet strike within 1/2 MOA of the desired impact point without any external artificial support?

No bipods, pads, or any thing holding or supporting the rifle except human extremedies that may be stabilized with a sling?

Note that in high power competition, most strings of fire at targets that far away are shot with metallic sights; no scopes allowed.

Your worried about everyone else accuracy and you should worry about your own.

You were on the 1988 Palma team shooting the palma rifle @ 800yd,900yda and 1000yd at the match held every 4yrs you were just one place out of being last place on your team for that match. the US team lost that match and that was a sling match no scope and sure got your name in the record books. You call record group .0077" luck what your excuse can't blame the ammo David Tubbs and his father placed pretty high.

Bart case you forget I made some comment about the 1968 Palma team and their win and the high score and here is your comment about it.

"the size of the target (rings) has everything to do with the scores fired for a given accuracy level of the equipment.

Old USA long range high power target rings used until the early 1970's:

V=20", 5=36" aiming bullseye, 4=54" 3=72" square target paper (original had a 2-point 20" x 72" panel on both sides; removed in the 1920's)

Great Britian long range fullbore target rings

V=14.4" (12" in Canada), 5=24", 4=48" aiming bullseye, 3=72", 2=96", 1=118" wide by 70" high target paper

USA long range high power target rings after early 1970's and adopted by the Int'l Palma Committee in 1991(?) as the standard for its matches.

X=20", 10=20", 9=30" 8=44" aiming bullseye, 7=60", 6= 72" square target paper

It's easy to see how a given shot distribution's dimensions will produce differnt scores depending on the target used. No wonder the USA set a record back then; the target's high scoring ring was 50% bigger than the British fullbore one used in virtually all other countries in Palma matches; 36" vs. 24" and the next highest ring was 54" vs. 48". "

You want to talk to me about my post I'll be glad to come up to loveland and meet you we'll have to do after I get back from hunting. Offer is still good but have to do it next year at the 1000yd BR match at Byers might want to start working on your loads.

 

[Bart B]

Thanks for not answering my question. It must be a secret of long range hunters.

And your ingnorance of long range bullseye marksmanship is showing; again as it has before.

Meanwhile, continue your rants about my poor performance in one long range match. I wasn't ranked in the top 2% of all of the long range bullseye shooters when I was classified as such because of low scores. It makes no difference to you that I've proved some who shot much better than I did in that incident have fallen on their sword in other events of the same type. But you've got an axe to grind. So rant on. Many will find it entertaining. So I applaude your efforts to please others as well as yourself. Please don't find then post the results of matches I've won or placed on the medal stand at long range; that would cramp your style and I don't want you to feel bad. Otherwise, here's another dismal performance you can spread around.

At the 1971 Interservice Rifle Matches at MCB Quantico, VA, where the top rifle shooters from the armed forces meet once a year, in the 600 yard service rifle match I was shooting a 7.62 Garand. Put the first 12 record shots in the 6" X ring, then crossfired the 13th one on the target on my right; 'twas scored a miss. My score for all 20 shots was a dismal 190-15X placing me in the lower half of all.

There's many others I'll be glad to share with you; publically so all can see how bad I am.

 

[Bart B]

might want to start working on your loads.

You need to learn how to remember what I've posted regarding my load accuracy. It's as bad as your poor memory about other stuff I've posted.

I'll not put proof on this site to save you the embarrasment of your incompetetance in that area.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

So... did the die ever get polished?

 

[Pdvdh]

What die???

 

[jsthntn247]

I thought this thread was about Bart B.