Polishing a body die?

jsthntn247 you have good reason for concern. There is no good in so much sizing.
To fix it, and cheaply, send your body die & 3 fired cases to JLC Precision for a fitted body-bushing die.

JLC Precision (Jim Carstensen)
[email protected]
13095 450th Ave
Bellevue, IA 52031
Shop phone: (563) 689-6258, cell: (563) 212-2984
 
Barb B ..........

??? I'm not sure what you mean.

I was referring to what happens when a case is fired. The stretching of your overall case length is normal as brass migrates forward from chamber pressure.

Excessive case stretching is avoidable by minimizing the shoulder clearance that your handloads have in your chamber.
If that's true, what holds the case back when the firing pin smacks the primer and fires the round? No extractor I know of does that; there's too much clearance between the bolt face and extractor lip.

All of my .308 Win. over all case lengths got shorter each time they're fired.

They're driven hard enough into the chamber shoulder by the firing pin that sets the shoulder back a couple thousandths. (.30-06 case shoulders have been set back .006" or more by hard bolt closing or firing pin impact.) Then the primer fires and burns the powder while the case head is a few thousandths clear of the bolt face and the primer gets pushed out a few thousandths by chamber pressure.

As pressure builds, the thinner front part of the case body expands grips the chamber wall drawing brass from the neck and shoulder back in into the body area. The thicker back end of the case then stretches back against the bolt face seating the primer flush with the case head. The end result is the length from case head to case mouth is shorter than before it was fired.

I used to think that's the way things were with rimless bottleneck cases. But I've done a lot of tests about this and with loads reduced too much, the case doesn't stretch back against the bolt face and the primer's sticking out past the case head. There wasn't enough peak pressure to fully expand the case in the chamber. Loads more than 12% below max for the .308 Win. have often had this problem.

Belted magnum case belts stopping against the chamber belt headspace ridge from firing pin impact and having a bit of clearance between the case shoulder and chamber shoulder when fired, will stretch forward until the case shoulder ends up against the chamber shoulder. But the overall result is the case overall length is shorter after firing.
 
Bart B ......

Most of your testing is accurate.

However, I believe it would take extreme testing and a very long chapter to explain why your logical theory isn't 100% accurate. The extreme quickness of a round firing and its tight grip against the chamber wall puts far less force against the face of your bolt than most shooters might think.

Extreme low pressure rounds are forced forward more due to the detonating of the primer than firing pin inertia. Fired cases can actually get shorter, but in my experience, that's mainly because of chamber diameter being wide enough (compared to your case) to draw the brass deeper inside the chamber.

caution.jpg

This picture (from my website www.larrywillis.com) shows a 300 Win Mag case that was accidentally fired in a 300 Weatherby rifle. In this extreme situation, that shows the case length shorter than before it was fired.

The variation in case diameter vs chamber diameter doesn't need to be this extreme to create shorter fired cases. If resizing is done accurately, fired cases usually get longer.
 
He is over annealing his cases and that is why they are growing OAL .
You don't need to anneal after each shot . I anneal my 308 after 5 to 7 shots .
 
The extreme quickness of a round firing and its tight grip against the chamber wall puts far less force against the face of your bolt than most shooters might think.
At most it'll be 1/10th or so as much as the psi level of the peak pressure.

Extreme low pressure rounds are forced forward more due to the detonating of the primer than firing pin inertia.
In my rifles with in-line ejectors pushing on the case heads on chambered .308 cases, that pushes them all the way forward until they stop against the chamber shoulder. Then stay there while firing pin drives them hard into the chamber shoulder setting the shoulder back a few thousandths. This is easily seen and measured with an empty sized case chambered, a rod put down the muzzle, then a caliper measuring its back and forth play as it's pushed back on the case moving it against the bolt face then releasing it and watching it get pushed forward by the ejector spring's force on the ejector pushing on the case head. The amount of movement's equal to head clearance; the difference between chamber headspace and case headspace (distance from case head to case shoulder datum)

This was proved in one of my tests by priming empty cases with dud primers (putting oil or water on them) then chambering and pulling the trigger so the firing pin smacked them with full force in several .308 rifles with in-line and exteranal ejectors. Every instance had the case shoulder set back as measured by an RCBS Precision Mic for case headspace before and after firing those primed cases. Changing firing pin strength from 2 to 26 pounds showed even the lightest one drove the case full forward in the chamber. Nothing held the case back. There's all sorts of ways to easily measure this and see exactly what happens. I don't think it's hard to figure it out without measuring anyway.

Tests with live primed cases showed the same amount of shoulder setback. None of the primers backed out of their pockets. Evidence to me that live ammo does the same thing.

I once loaded 44 rounds in a match but only 22 fired; 20 had no powder, no bullets left the case mouth nor primers backed out from the duds. Subsequent tests with a few more rounds of that lot that weighed 44 grains less than others (proof there was no powder in them) showed the case shoulders were set back a couple thousandths by firing pin impact. That was issued ammo, not stuff I handloaded.

Fired cases can actually get shorter, but in my experience, that's mainly because of chamber diameter being wide enough (compared to your case) to draw the brass deeper inside the chamber.
A friend in 1970 once had shot 20 V's in a row in a 1000 yard match with his .300 Win Mag but had no more ammo to continue shooting for the record. Someone gave him a handful of ammo to continue shooting; his first shot with it had the bullet hit the dirt in front of the target. He ejected that round noting it was a .30-.338 Win Mag. The fired case looked much like the .300 Winnie fired in a .300 Wby chamber in your picture (which isn't clear enough for me to see any difference in case length). Years later, when I had a .300 Win. Mag., I fired one of my .30-.338 rounds in it to compare before and after case length. The fired case was several thousandths shorter after firing and had the same appearance as the ones you show.

These cases were held back by their belts stopping against the chamber headspace ridge so there was clearance between the case shoulder to the chamber shoulcer as the round fired. This doesn't happen with rimless bottleneck case whose headspace is shorter than chamber headspace.

Most case length shortening I've seen was when some 7.62 NATO ammo was fired in 30 caliber M1 rifles. The cases were held tight enough at their shoulder-body junction so they fired, but pretty much stayed in place and probably helped by the extractor's lip holding the rim while their shoulders and necks were blown out with the case looking like a regular .30-06 one trimmed back to about 1/16th inch in front of the shoulder-body junction. They were visibly shorter after firing compared to an unfired 7. 62 case. It can be seen in the image below:

tech-c.gif


The variation in case diameter vs chamber diameter doesn't need to be this extreme to create shorter fired cases. If resizing is done accurately, fired cases usually get longer.
Back to my earlier question; what do you think's in a rifle that holds a .308 Win. case back when it fires with its shoulder clear of the chamber shoulder to blow the case shoulder forward?

A couple dozen types of rimless bottleneck cartridge cases from 22 to 32 caliber I've reloaded all got shorter when fired. Moreso with new cases compared to full length sized ones.

Handgun cases are different, at least in my tests with 9mm, .38 Spcl, .357 Mag and .45 ACP; their primers usually end up backed out from primed cases being fired in them. Their firing pin impact force is much less than centerfire rifles have. Powderless ammo usually drives the bullet out of the case for some distance from pressure from just the primed case.
 
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He is over annealing his cases and that is why they are growing OAL .
You don't need to anneal after each shot . I anneal my 308 after 5 to 7 shots .

I've never annealed after every shot until lately. Every top shooter at the range( all high masters) anneal after every firing. Since I started doing this 2 matches ago, I have not had one unexplained flier and my score came up 15 points. However, this could be the reason for the case growth.
 
Every top shooter at the range( all high masters) anneal after every firing.
In high power matches and classified as a high master, I've never annealed a case. .308 Win. cases went 20 to 30 reloads each, 30 caliber magnum ones 10 to 15 reloads each. Never had an unexplained flier from any reload. Few, if any of the best shots annealed cases after each use; some every 10 to 15 times and others like me; never.

A friend shot one Federal .308 Win. case 57 times full length sizing (die had its neck lapped out to .350" and no expander ball was used) it each time reducing fired case body diameter about .003" and setting the shoulder back about .0015" each time. With his match rifle clamped in a machine rest, all 57 bullets went into a single group a bit over3/10ths inch at 100 yards. Load was 42 grains of IMR4895 between a standard Fed. 210 primer and Sierra 168 HPMK bullet.
 
Bart B ..........

The difference in pressure isn't the issue here. A primer ignites more than a thousand times faster than powder (which is a very slow propellant). You're right about the case shoulder (on some types of rifles) getting pushed back. I'm just saying that a primer blasting the case forward (and itself rearward)has a greater effect than the tap from a firing pin.

jsthntn247 .........

You're right about the excessive case growth. I suspect you're improving scores reflect an improvement in your shooting skill. Practice, practice, practice ....
 
I'm just saying that a primer blasting the case forward (and itself rearward)has a greater effect than the tap from a firing pin.
Larry,

I've never had a primer in a primed case without powder or bullet back out of it's pocket any amount; not even with a weak firing pin spring in several centerfire rifles. I've shot dozens of them and they all stayed a couple thousandths below flush with the case head. There's too much force from the firing pin spring to let them back out. Cases so fired had their shoulders set back the same amount as if a dead primer was used. Proof to me that the case shoulders gets set back solely from firing pin impact on .308 Win. cases.

Only with live ammo with extreme reduced loads (more than 10%) in .308 Win. cases have I seen the primer backed out from flush with the case head. The more reduction there is, the more the primer is left sticking out of the case. With less than 10 % reduced loads with 168's in .308 cases (at least 40 grains of IMR4064 or 38 grains of IMR4895), the primer does back out a bit past case head to start out with, but the pressure at its peak is enough to push the back part of the case rearward until it stops against the bolt face pushing the primer back flush with the case head.
 
I can see the group accuracy fall off after about 5 to 7 shots in my 308. Annealing brings the accuracy back as longas no other component is at fault .
I think a lot depends on chamber fit , brass quality , chamber pressures , and the way you reload . I don't seem to get much benefit from annealing in my 223 so I don't bother with it in the 223 .
I think their is so many different cartridges , chamber dimensions , reloading styles , component qualities etc etc etc. that no one person has all the answers for every situation . The best we can do is say what works for us in our situation .
Experts are only experts in their chosen field . Firearms and the shooting sports in general is a massive field of variations .
Why would the annealing operation exist if it was of no use in any situation ?
 
It cannot be declared as though across the board that headspacing changes from firing pin impact, or even primer firing alone.
I tested this, firing primers in empty cases of 223, 6br, 6xc, and 6.5wssm. Head space was not affected in any of these. It was 1.5thou before and after the tests(my standard setting).
 
It cannot be declared as though across the board that headspacing changes from firing pin impact, or even primer firing alone.
I tested this, firing primers in empty cases of 223, 6br, 6xc, and 6.5wssm. Head space was not affected in any of these. It was 1.5thou before and after the tests(my standard setting).
That's what I've seen firing .222 Rem., .220.250 and .243 primed empty cases then checking for shoulder setback from pin impact.

Hatcher, in his tests with .30-06 cartridges, found hard closing of an M1903 bolt on them would set the shoulder back 6 thousandths. Check this link:

Hatcher's Notebook - Julian S. Hatcher - Google Books

Other cases I've tested with less shoulder surface and shallower angles, i.e. those based on the .30-06 and .308 Win case 30 caliber and larger all showed some shoulder setback. Nickel plated .308 Win cases had more shoulder setback than brass ones. The .358 Win primed cases had the most shoulder setback.

The double rifle .375 Super Flanged Magnum developed around 1900 was made into a rimless case for trials in bolt action rifles. Firing pin impact on its small area, 17 degree shoulder from Mauser actions was enough to drive it forward setting the shoulder back enough to start causing incipient head separation. So they put a rimless belt on it in 1912 so that belt would control headspacing and prevent shoulder setback from firing pin impact as well as enable flawless feeding from box magaznies. That was the birth of the .375 H&H Magnum. Other rimmed cases also had belts added in the same time frame to control headspace in bolt action rifles.
 
As I said in post 17, it would take a very long chapter to fully explain shoulder setback. There are a jillion different calibers, hard primers, soft primers, light/fast firing pins, heavy/slow firing pins, that affect shoulder setback.
 
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