Pierce Ti Featherweight

[D-mon]

I went to that site to check the price of titanium:

Buy Titanium Round Bar Online

Buy titanium-round-bar and other metal-working products online at OnlineMetals.com®.

www.onlinemetals.com

A Remington style action is 1.35" in diameter.
The price of a 1.5" diameter bar is about $277.
The price of a 2.25" diameter bar is about $624.
One can see the difference in price just in the material, not even machining time.

 

[Jud96]

I went to that site to check the price of titanium:

Buy Titanium Round Bar Online

Buy titanium-round-bar and other metal-working products online at OnlineMetals.com®.

www.onlinemetals.com

A Remington style action is 1.35" in diameter.
The price of a 1.5" diameter bar is about $277.
The price of a 2.25" diameter bar is about $624.
One can see the difference in price just in the material, not even machining time.

Yes. This is what I'm referring too when I say the costs and the machine time. It's much more than most realize.

 

[DudeBro]

@Jud96, what's the best way to talk to someone about these actions? I tried the number on your site and got a fax machine sound.

 

[Justice1327]

Integral lugs are 100% beneficial and are the choice action among 99.9% of shooters and builders especially when one wants too control head space too the nearest .0001" for prefits etc.
the question is... why NOT make them with integral lugs and rails if you have the ability in your machine shop and the high demand is there???? ..

and yes Kirby is running a lot of defiance deviant hunter all integral actions on his rifles now days.. i would say probably 5 to 1

Additionally, in most cases, you get additional threading and more contact/ lock up between the barrel and action

 

[Justice1327]

We are a small but growing shop. We currently do not have the time to research, develop, and produce another alternative action. I understand the integral lug actions sell and that it's important to many people. I'm not denying that. I simply machine the parts and make the actions. From my perspective, it can be a lot to keep up with the options we already make. The machine time is important because we can't slow down our production at this time do to how busy we are. I understand where you're coming from but you need to understand where we are coming from. It's not as simple as copying and pasting an integral lug. It's changing a lot of how we do things to accommodate that in the busiest time in a long time.

It is difficult for some to understand a supply chain and what it takes to manage a process. I studied for many years on process improvements and NVA steps. Even those who worked in Mngmt, when given the numbers still argued. This is one reason why Toyota beat us out in car manufacturing. That said, would recommend any one who is " slammed" and can't take one more work to look at decreasing NVA steps. Costs money and time up front, but can have huge dividends that are far reaching.

 

[Jud96]

@Jud96, what's the best way to talk to someone about these actions? I tried the number on your site and got a fax machine sound.

Call the shop number. I'm sorry about that.
517-321-5051

 

[wasskeet]

Yes. This is what I'm referring too when I say the costs and the machine time. It's much more than most realize.

Not to mention any waste - if you get lengths of bar stock.
Impressive work from you guys at Pierce!

 

[Jud96]

Not to mention any waste - if you get lengths of bar stock.
Impressive work from you guys at Pierce!

Thank you! We appreciate it!

 

[ntsqd]

Clearly what you guys need to do is create some Near-Net forgings for your integral lug Ti actions (& maybe for that action type in any metal!).

That was typed with a partial tone of sarcasm in case it didn't come through. It would be a cool way to make them, but oh my!!!

 

[D-mon]

In a few decades , when our governments have kill all manufacturing and the world is taken over by the robots, we will be 3D printing them in our garage ;-)
I wonder if titanium could be cast and if it could be treated to get the same level of strength as what is achieved out of a bar?

Distressing a bit here, but I was wondering if a company like ruger that owns its own foundry could not make some semi custom action with integral recoil lugs and integral 20 Moa rail at a decent price ? They could re use their ruger American 3 lug bolt which is not a too bad design, change their trigger to a Remington style trigger or Tikka style.
There would then be minimum machining to do on the actions coming out from the moulds .

 

[ntsqd]

Ti can be cast, a previous employer had some dual entry turbocharger turbine scrolls made as a way of taking some weight out of an aircraft turbo. The whole process has to occur in the absence of oxygen. It was a company in the greater Portland, OR area that did the foundry work. Those were beyond very expensive!
For a rifle action I'd rather have a forging than a casting. Castings will work, as Ruger can obviously demonstrate, but you need to use more material to provide a suitable Factor of Safety. That kinda runs contrary to making it light.

I know of a company down in TX that can print Ti parts. A friend held a 1911 frame printed in Inconel that had a Ti slide on it. Both were 3D printed parts. I would treat printed parts like they were castings.

 

[badthirtyone]

Ti can be cast, a previous employer had some dual entry turbocharger turbine scrolls made as a way of taking some weight out of an aircraft turbo. The whole process has to occur in the absence of oxygen. It was a company in the greater Portland, OR area that did the foundry work. Those were beyond very expensive!
For a rifle action I'd rather have a forging than a casting. Castings will work, as Ruger can obviously demonstrate, but you need to use more material to provide a suitable Factor of Safety. That kinda runs contrary to making it light.

I know of a company down in TX that can print Ti parts. A friend held a 1911 frame printed in Inconel that had a Ti slide on it. Both were 3D printed parts. I would treat printed parts like they were castings.

This.

In addition to the other worldly cost associated with casting titanium, the biggest issue to overcome is the far weaker grain structure that comes from the casting process. Billet and bar will always be considerably stronger due to the forging process and grain alignment that comes out of producing bar stock versus casting.

I believe that Pierce engineering is well aware of this and looks like they are making exceptional products based on the bar stock that they are getting.

 

[sfdoc2000]

I have a Pierce Titanium action F-TR rifle in .308 that the folks at Pierce built for me with a McMillan stock and a Bartlein Palma barrel. The action is built like a tank but performs like it is built like a watch. Incredibly smooth bolt action and locking. Recoil lug is double pinned and is very solid. I don't see this as a problem. Just look at the actions used by the top competitors on the F Class firing lines and Pierce is right up there with Kelbly and BAT.
Regarding cast titanium??? Titanium must be cast in an argon atmosphere (from friends working at jet engine manufacturing facilities). Highly combustible at molten temperatures. Better to machine from stock.

 

[ntsqd]

Reminds me, Jud, grab some of the Ti chips (CAREFULLY!) and take them with on the next camping trip. They burn very pretty in the camp fire. The smaller the chips the better.

I say carefully because Ti has an even lower rejection rate from your body than does Stainless. A Ti chip stuck in you is extremely unlikely to fester, to get it out you will have to do some field surgery. This is why implants are made from it, not for weight or any other reason.