Eric Stecker
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 292
I am reading this thread for the first time today and am certainly concerned. This is not the only report of such an occurrence but one of our greatest challenges is that these reports are few compared to the literally millions of hunting bullets we've sold since they were introduced in 2005.
Another challenge is that one hunter will experience this result while other hunters using the same lot of bullets won't. Making every bullet as consistently as possible using strict material lot controls and tooling controls gives us a reason to believe that if one bullet "fails" within a lot then they all should (or at least most should) but this isn't what happens.
Setting all that aside I am eager to get this situation resolved. I will appreciate it if you can answer some questions. This is normally done directly but I am willing to have this discussion on this forum so everyone (including us) can learn from your experience.
What is the lot number of the 7mm 180 gr VLD Hunting bullets?
Have you had this same result using other bullets from that box?
Do you know the lot number of the 338 cal 300 gr bullet?
Do you trim the meplat or repoint your bullets using a Whidden or similar process?
Do you single feed your rounds or are they fed through a magazine?
What was your load? I see you relay your MV but I don't see your load. I might have missed it.
Let's start here. I will also like to get the bullets back to our shop so that we can analyze them. I'll admit that when we receive such reports and get the bullets back in our shop to test them we have been unable to duplicate the results reported. It is important to note that we aren't testing them in animals but at this point we can't explain scientifically why that would matter.
I'll also address some other comments made in this thread. The picture of the 338 cal 300 gr is puzzling. It appears that this bullet has been sitting around for some time as it looks to be covered with some type of oxidation. It is also strange that the bearing surface of this bullet appears to be quite a bit longer than that of the 7mm. Both of these bullets have essentially the same length bearing surface.
It is also important to mention that the 338 cal 300 gr Hybrid OTM Tactical bullet was made purposely thicker so that it could hold up to the conditions it will face in combat. This was a change made after the Gen 1 bullets were found to have performance issues under high pressures and velocities. We do not recommend the 300 gr Hybrid OTM Tactical (Gen 2) for hunting. In fact we've recently introduced the 338 cal 300 gr Elite Hunter which is designed to expand more rapidly on game. Which 300 gr is shown in this picture is not mentioned.
Regarding, The Best of the West, it is regrettable that economics compelled us to discontinue our sponsorship of the show. This happened some time ago. I don't know which bullets they are shooting now or why they would switch from pushing the 7mm to a 300 Win Mag.
They reported to us that while we were involved with the show that they had no problems with our bullets. They shot literally hundreds of animals over the years we worked with them. They are good people and had the economics been different we would still be involved with them today. I'd like to sponsor every hunting show but we simply can't afford it.
Jeff (Broz) isn't aware of this (until now) but we have bullets that will be heading his direction. Jeff made it clear that he is not sharing his results using our bullets for the sake of getting bullets for free. He is reporting what he is finding when he uses them. It just so happens that they are working great for him (and many others). We planned on thanking Jeff for his efforts with bullets but this is normally kept between us. Since this question is coming up often I'll make this fact public so that it can be resolved.
Regarding hunting bullets working ALL of the time, there isn't a brand of hunting bullet made that does not have "failures". "Failures" is frankly a troubling word to use since these reports typically come from hunters who recover bullets from dead animals. How an animal dying produces a hunting bullet that "failed" is a difficult thing to process.
I am not saying that a bullet can't be responsible for an animal that doesn't die but there is one part of this situation that has always puzzled me. It is my understanding that the point of hunting is a quick ethical kill. If the hunter puts the bullet in the animal's heart, lungs or liver then that animal will die. A bullet that does more damage to these vital organs will bring that animal to an end more swiftly which is why our bullets are so popular.
If an animal is shot and it runs off never to be found, is it possible that the bullet was put into these vital organs and the animal managed to shrug this off? It seems unlikely. I recall that the number of hunting licenses purchased a few years ago was 14 million (this is from memory and not confirmed). If half these hunters shot one animal that means roughly 7 million animals were shot in one year.
These are rough numbers but the point I am getting to is that given the number of animals that are shot, how many are shot in places that are not lethal? I know this has nothing to do with the bullet shown in the pictures but to that particular subject, is it possible that a small fraction of a percent of bullets could perform in ways that can't be explained? Does this mean that the bullets don't work or is this simply a matter of the realities of extremes in a population of factors?
Having said all that, I want to make it clear that we will continue to work on this situation to discover why these results occur even if these results are infrequent. It doesn't matter what is the root cause. My goal is to figure this out so we can educate hunters on how to have the best hunting experience.
Regards,
Eric
Another challenge is that one hunter will experience this result while other hunters using the same lot of bullets won't. Making every bullet as consistently as possible using strict material lot controls and tooling controls gives us a reason to believe that if one bullet "fails" within a lot then they all should (or at least most should) but this isn't what happens.
Setting all that aside I am eager to get this situation resolved. I will appreciate it if you can answer some questions. This is normally done directly but I am willing to have this discussion on this forum so everyone (including us) can learn from your experience.
What is the lot number of the 7mm 180 gr VLD Hunting bullets?
Have you had this same result using other bullets from that box?
Do you know the lot number of the 338 cal 300 gr bullet?
Do you trim the meplat or repoint your bullets using a Whidden or similar process?
Do you single feed your rounds or are they fed through a magazine?
What was your load? I see you relay your MV but I don't see your load. I might have missed it.
Let's start here. I will also like to get the bullets back to our shop so that we can analyze them. I'll admit that when we receive such reports and get the bullets back in our shop to test them we have been unable to duplicate the results reported. It is important to note that we aren't testing them in animals but at this point we can't explain scientifically why that would matter.
I'll also address some other comments made in this thread. The picture of the 338 cal 300 gr is puzzling. It appears that this bullet has been sitting around for some time as it looks to be covered with some type of oxidation. It is also strange that the bearing surface of this bullet appears to be quite a bit longer than that of the 7mm. Both of these bullets have essentially the same length bearing surface.
It is also important to mention that the 338 cal 300 gr Hybrid OTM Tactical bullet was made purposely thicker so that it could hold up to the conditions it will face in combat. This was a change made after the Gen 1 bullets were found to have performance issues under high pressures and velocities. We do not recommend the 300 gr Hybrid OTM Tactical (Gen 2) for hunting. In fact we've recently introduced the 338 cal 300 gr Elite Hunter which is designed to expand more rapidly on game. Which 300 gr is shown in this picture is not mentioned.
Regarding, The Best of the West, it is regrettable that economics compelled us to discontinue our sponsorship of the show. This happened some time ago. I don't know which bullets they are shooting now or why they would switch from pushing the 7mm to a 300 Win Mag.
They reported to us that while we were involved with the show that they had no problems with our bullets. They shot literally hundreds of animals over the years we worked with them. They are good people and had the economics been different we would still be involved with them today. I'd like to sponsor every hunting show but we simply can't afford it.
Jeff (Broz) isn't aware of this (until now) but we have bullets that will be heading his direction. Jeff made it clear that he is not sharing his results using our bullets for the sake of getting bullets for free. He is reporting what he is finding when he uses them. It just so happens that they are working great for him (and many others). We planned on thanking Jeff for his efforts with bullets but this is normally kept between us. Since this question is coming up often I'll make this fact public so that it can be resolved.
Regarding hunting bullets working ALL of the time, there isn't a brand of hunting bullet made that does not have "failures". "Failures" is frankly a troubling word to use since these reports typically come from hunters who recover bullets from dead animals. How an animal dying produces a hunting bullet that "failed" is a difficult thing to process.
I am not saying that a bullet can't be responsible for an animal that doesn't die but there is one part of this situation that has always puzzled me. It is my understanding that the point of hunting is a quick ethical kill. If the hunter puts the bullet in the animal's heart, lungs or liver then that animal will die. A bullet that does more damage to these vital organs will bring that animal to an end more swiftly which is why our bullets are so popular.
If an animal is shot and it runs off never to be found, is it possible that the bullet was put into these vital organs and the animal managed to shrug this off? It seems unlikely. I recall that the number of hunting licenses purchased a few years ago was 14 million (this is from memory and not confirmed). If half these hunters shot one animal that means roughly 7 million animals were shot in one year.
These are rough numbers but the point I am getting to is that given the number of animals that are shot, how many are shot in places that are not lethal? I know this has nothing to do with the bullet shown in the pictures but to that particular subject, is it possible that a small fraction of a percent of bullets could perform in ways that can't be explained? Does this mean that the bullets don't work or is this simply a matter of the realities of extremes in a population of factors?
Having said all that, I want to make it clear that we will continue to work on this situation to discover why these results occur even if these results are infrequent. It doesn't matter what is the root cause. My goal is to figure this out so we can educate hunters on how to have the best hunting experience.
Regards,
Eric
He's been a faithful provider of lots of good information on this Forum, and I mean in addition to all the Berger in-use end results stories too.
