Pass through or Expended in Target?

[VLD Pilot]

At some point if a animal runs with a exit when the cavity fills with blood ,you will have some sort of a blood trail . It may be a short distance or a long distance depending on a lot of circumstances, single lung Double lung , heart , arterial , venial, size of exit ,cal impact vel , bullet choice ,animal , thick skinned thin skinned ,etc.etc . As hunters I hope we all understand this and never give up even when a animal runs with no apparent blood trail. I know my equipment and if I make a good shot with the bullet I use I know what too expect . I think that would be all you could ask for reguardless the outcome , unless you could absolutely prove otherwise . Anything is possible in the field , but rarely I would be wrong in this statement, bottom line when you know you made a good shot don't give up looking for the animal.The bullet probably didn't fail, unless it exceeded its capabilities.

. Never had a bullet hit deer drop outside visual range. Sorry, I had one big buck hit with a 95 grain Berger from a 243 run about 40 yards. No blood and it was snowing. I followed the direction he was traveling after I shot him. No tracks because it was snowing hard. 40 yards later, wheels up. Entrance no exit behind the shoulder lung hit. Lung shot, bleeding from his mouth. Still no blood till I recovered the deer. Now Archery, a whole different story. Many fall within eye shot but most I track. Gun shot deer are and have been gravy recovery's. They always lay where they were hit minus that one buck. Hit one at 330 with a 160 Nosler Partition from a 7mm mag. Shot him down a two track. He leaped after the shot out of sight. When I arrived at the shot location, he was just on the edge of that two track not 8' from where he was hit. In fact his legs were still in the trail. That too was a pass thru shot. I call that buck a DRT kill also. All my LR shots I've had the luck of watching drop on the spot. Usually bean fields 75-890 yard shooting from my stand. Most shots are 200-690 where deer show up. This year they were all 400 yard kills. All DRT. I've been very lucky I'd say based on others experiences. Wish I could say that using archery gear. I've lost a few arrow shot bucks.

 

[QuietTexan]

I voted passthrough, but the logic is that passthrough means the bullet had enough retained energy at impact to push all the way though. That's the longest possible wound channel - all the way through. So if the rest of everything went as planed, meaning shot was placed correctly and bullet worked as designed, then it created the largest possible permanent wound channel. The size and shape of the wound channel (Note 1) drives exsanguination.

I guess if you recover a bullet under the off side hide it's also the longest possible channel, just lacks a second drain hole.

IMO - DRT is a combination of exsanguination and whatever happens to an animal when it basically gets knocked out cold by the impact lasting long enough that they bleed out before they get up. We've all seen whatever this shock concept is - the animal drops into its socks and looks dead, but you walk up on it and danged if isn't still alive and moving (voluntary movements or not who knows). Probably something similar to when they take off running full-tilt with their heart and lungs blown out of their chests, it's two ends of a spectrum where one is no brain activity and one is brain on hyperdrive.

Note 1 - As laid out much better than I could by Steve:

Bullet failures

"Energy dump" is not a real thing. It gets brought up regularly as a quality for hunting bullets. Energy for that matter is a very secondary figure when it comes to choosing bullets. Impact vel and what the bullet does on impact is what matters. If energy actually mattered then a bullet that...

www.longrangehunting.com

 

[FEENIX]

In 2013, a hunting buddy harvested a Montana bull elk, but it took three shots of 180 TTSX out of his .300 WM. The first two shots were complete passed through at the lung area; exit wounds ~1" wide. The third shot was through the front shoulder and penetrated 3/4 the length of the bull, and the bullet was recovered with a perfect expansion. All shots were under 100Y. Sometimes even when the shot placements are good, and the bullets performed as advertised, the game might expire differently.

 

[cornshank]

In 2013, a hunting buddy harvested a Montana bull elk, but it took three shots of 180 TTSX out of his .300 WM. The first two shots were complete passed through at the lung area; exit wounds ~1" wide. The third shot was through the front shoulder and penetrated 3/4 the length of the bull, and the bullet was recovered with a perfect expansion. All shots were under 100Y. Sometimes even when the shot placements are good, and the bullets performed as advertised, the game might expire differently.

I agree

 

[Jon Bischof]

In 2013, a hunting buddy harvested a Montana bull elk, but it took three shots of 180 TTSX out of his .300 WM. The first two shots were complete passed through at the lung area; exit wounds ~1" wide. The third shot was through the front shoulder and penetrated 3/4 the length of the bull, and the bullet was recovered with a perfect expansion. All shots were under 100Y. Sometimes even when the shot placements are good, and the bullets performed as advertised, the game might expire differently.

Once shot a buck at close range with 30-06 Sierra Game King Soft Point. He ran about 90 Yards. I recovered his whole heart during field dressing and was surprised, even shocked, when the heart fell open into two equal halves and I could plainly see that the bullet passed through the middle of the heart cutting it into two separate halves.

I marvelled at how he could have covered those 90 yards with that heart cut in two, but he did. Some say adrenaline, some say autonomic flight response. In any case, sometimes a perfect shot with perfect expansion and penetration runs through a critter that just never wants to be found even if it is the last thing he does.

Made the high shoulder shot on another buck, bullet went through both scapulas and exited. He somehow managed to get into a giant brushpile that had been rowed up by a bulldozer by the loggers. He went into it and crawled into the very middle of it and somehow worked his way down to the ground underneath it. I had to crawl into the pile and pull the buck out while backing myself out. Inexplicable.

 

[WildRose]

Once shot a buck at close range with 30-06 Sierra Game King Soft Point. He ran about 90 Yards. I recovered his whole heart during field dressing and was surprised, even shocked, when the heart fell open into two equal halves and I could plainly see that the bullet passed through the middle of the heart cutting it into two separate halves.

I marvelled at how he could have covered those 90 yards with that heart cut in two, but he did. Some say adrenaline, some say autonomic flight response. In any case, sometimes a perfect shot with perfect expansion and penetration runs through a critter that just never wants to be found even if it is the last thing he does.

Made the high shoulder shot on another buck, bullet went through both scapulas and exited. He somehow managed to get into a giant brushpile that had been rowed up by a bulldozer by the loggers. He went into it and crawled into the very middle of it and somehow worked his way down to the ground underneath it. I had to crawl into the pile and pull the buck out while backing myself out. Inexplicable.

Residual oxygen in the blood and tissues combined with adrenaline can give you an extra burst of life for about 15-30 seconds.

That's why in self defense training we stress that the target is still a threat as long as it is moving.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Residual oxygen in the blood and tissues combined with adrenaline can give you an extra burst of life for about 15-30 seconds.

That's why in self defense training we stress that the target is still a threat as long as it is moving.

AND 15-30 seconds will offer plenty of time for a deer or Elk to cover several hundred yards.

 

[WildRose]

AND 15-30 seconds will offer plenty of time for a deer or Elk to cover several hundred yards.

Exactly. Life in the wild is tough, if they were all pushovers there wouldn't be any of either left.

 

[Joefrazell]

In 2013, a hunting buddy harvested a Montana bull elk, but it took three shots of 180 TTSX out of his .300 WM. The first two shots were complete passed through at the lung area; exit wounds ~1" wide. The third shot was through the front shoulder and penetrated 3/4 the length of the bull, and the bullet was recovered with a perfect expansion. All shots were under 100Y. Sometimes even when the shot placements are good, and the bullets performed as advertised, the game might expire differently.

My thought when hearing these types of situations is would it have been different with a rapid expanding bullet like a Berger. Say a 210 vld or 215 hybrid.

Like you said, the game might expire differently and there's no way of knowing.

I personally have never shot an animal with a mono and have heard a lot of these types of stories about pass throughs and animals not having them go down quickly. I have however used federal fusions to take several game animals. Mule deer and black bear. Always got pass throughs even when shooting shoulders. Usually that 1" size exit. Looking back on that game it always ran around a bit before expiring. Now I loved that bullet and liked that if I needed to I could take a challenging shot angle. But after I started reloading and using more efficient long range bullets that are cup and core I've noticed that even though I don't get pass throughs animals seem to be anchored much quicker. Not always drt but usually die within 10 seconds or so and they usually don't run far at all. But many are drt.

 

[Jon Bischof]

Fusion may be advertised/marketed with Whitetail hunters as the target market. But it is a much tougher bullet than than typical deer bullets of the past. Unlike mechanically "locked" jackets like Partition, Interlock, etc., Fusions cannot lose their jackets. I have seen Partition jackets completely separated from the core. Fusion jackets can only be peeled back if the lead comes with it. That is why they are skivved to allow expansion. Because they cannot lose their jacket, they penetrate more like monos, except they are not designed to lose petals like some monos. Lead just sticks to the jacket as it peels. So it ends up being a mushroom that doesn't lose much mass.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Fusion may be advertised/marketed with Whitetail hunters as the target market. But it is a much tougher bullet than than typical deer bullets of the past. Unlike mechanically "locked" jackets like Partition, Interlock, etc., Fusions cannot lose their jackets. I have seen Partition jackets completely separated from the core. Fusion jackets can only be peeled back if the lead comes with it. That is why they are skivved to allow expansion. Because they cannot lose their jacket, they penetrate more like monos, except they are not designed to lose petals like some monos. Lead just sticks to the jacket as it peels. So it ends up being a mushroom that doesn't lose much mass.

The fusion bullets IMO are highly overlooked bullets for sure. My grand daughters have killed numerous deer with the fusion bullets. There a tough bullet for sure.

 

[Jon Bischof]

Here's a 357 magnum Fusion recovered from far side skin of a deer my son killed. Of course if you use a rifle cartridge Fusion, you hardly ever recover a bullet. But these photos should show how jacket and lead stick together even when forcibly mushroomed.

 

[VLD Pilot]

Here's a 357 magnum Fusion recovered from far side skin of a deer my son killed. Of course if you use a rifle cartridge Fusion, you hardly ever recover a bullet. But these photos should show how jacket and leaf stick together even when forcibly mushroomed.

I found if you use the right weight bullet for caliber, most times the bullet IS recovered on the opposite side under the hide. For me, that bullet is the 130 grain in 270 win.

 

[Jon Bischof]

I found if you use the right weight bullet for caliber, most times the bullet IS recovered on the opposite side under the hide. For me, that bullet is the 130 grain in 270 win.

Can you show us a picture of your recovered 130 grain Fusion?