I have 2 lb Nightforce's on my 5lb mountain rifles. You save weight where you can. What does a Leupold weigh? Depending on model, maybe 19 oz. NX8 is 30. So 11 oz. If I can put together a super solid rifle that weighs 7lbs total, how is that something to laugh at? I'd laugh more at the guy with the 8lb rifle and a lightweight Leupold, for a total rifle weight of 9.5 lbs, and a scope that craps the bed on him when he needs it most.
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Optics
- Thread starter Clem Bronkoski
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med358-boise
Well-Known Member
There are many factors that go into the Price of any item. Cost to design, produce and sell a product includes materials, labor (which includes location) and mfg overhead (which includes product design) and general overhead (which includes marketing, sales and admin, etc.) then you have to add on both required/desired profit to get to Price.
Historically, for most manufactured products those costs related to actual production (materials, labor, and mfg overhead) have been ~20-30% of the price overall industries. So note somewhere between 70 and 80% of the price is unrelated to the actual cost to produce.
There is not always a direct relationship between quality cost. Three factors that most people don't consider about why the price of product is what it is are 1) Profit desires, 2) expected number of Units sold), and what I would call the Psychology of Pricing as it relates to human behavior.
Profit required and profit desired and expected number of units - if I have two scopes that cost the same to produce but the "market" (expected units is 1/2 that of the other) the profit portion has to be doubled to meet required/desired return on investment. Even though the market may only be 1/2 it doesn't mean the product will die if I can get the required price.
The Human psychology part of price and buying decisions ("buying status", "buying to remove personal risk", or "buying for to ensure job security") can fill books and their is an entire consulting field on it. Anyone who doesn't think that plays into outdoor products is naive. It even plays into military purchases where you think it wouldn't. A simple example is cars - Mercedes, BMW etc sell anywhere from 30-50% more than a Toyotas and Toyotas out perform them on many of the most basic specifications. With respect to military acquisitions where someone's life is on the line, think about the various scenarios we have read about where controversies have arisen where the best performing product wasn't selected and contrary to popular belief the government always doesn't buy the lowest price product - that regulation is easily circumvented.
Not saying a $500 scope is as good as $1500 scope but it would be incorrect to assume a $1500-$2000 scope is factually/technically/mechanically twice as good as $750-$1000 scope.
All products sometimes fail and whether Product A's failure rate is 1% and Product B's failure rate is 3%; it doesn't matter when you are in the 1% of Product A customers who had the failure and by the way there are very few rigorous statistically valid tests for outdoor products.
Historically, for most manufactured products those costs related to actual production (materials, labor, and mfg overhead) have been ~20-30% of the price overall industries. So note somewhere between 70 and 80% of the price is unrelated to the actual cost to produce.
There is not always a direct relationship between quality cost. Three factors that most people don't consider about why the price of product is what it is are 1) Profit desires, 2) expected number of Units sold), and what I would call the Psychology of Pricing as it relates to human behavior.
Profit required and profit desired and expected number of units - if I have two scopes that cost the same to produce but the "market" (expected units is 1/2 that of the other) the profit portion has to be doubled to meet required/desired return on investment. Even though the market may only be 1/2 it doesn't mean the product will die if I can get the required price.
The Human psychology part of price and buying decisions ("buying status", "buying to remove personal risk", or "buying for to ensure job security") can fill books and their is an entire consulting field on it. Anyone who doesn't think that plays into outdoor products is naive. It even plays into military purchases where you think it wouldn't. A simple example is cars - Mercedes, BMW etc sell anywhere from 30-50% more than a Toyotas and Toyotas out perform them on many of the most basic specifications. With respect to military acquisitions where someone's life is on the line, think about the various scenarios we have read about where controversies have arisen where the best performing product wasn't selected and contrary to popular belief the government always doesn't buy the lowest price product - that regulation is easily circumvented.
Not saying a $500 scope is as good as $1500 scope but it would be incorrect to assume a $1500-$2000 scope is factually/technically/mechanically twice as good as $750-$1000 scope.
All products sometimes fail and whether Product A's failure rate is 1% and Product B's failure rate is 3%; it doesn't matter when you are in the 1% of Product A customers who had the failure and by the way there are very few rigorous statistically valid tests for outdoor products.
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2Rope
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2015
- Messages
- 127
I'm amazed that a 788 Remington .270 Wearing a K 4 Weaver ever killed anything..? I'm not against technology, but shooter ability won't be replaced with high end equipment… or will it? Most can handle their 3/4 ton 4wd on the road, how many can run a Lamborghini to it potential?
woodnut
Well-Known Member
Mightyman, I too have bought several NF scopes on this web site. All were listed as used, but they came like new. I wrote an article years ago about scopes. I said you can't put a cheap scope in good rings and get good performance; nor can you put a good scope in bad rings and get good performance. The key is to put a good scope in good rings and then level it. I keep a bubble level on all of mine.
Now, about scope quality. Leupold used to be the "gold" standard. Used to be. They also said you don't need 30 mm tubes, because they didn't make 30mm tubes. Now they do. Hum?
When you dial up or for windage, it better go where you intended it to go. If you can't "walk" around a target and come back to the starting point; it ain't a good scope.
I have owned many brands of scopes. Some were good, some not so good. Price, a lot of times, didn't matter. Manufacturers, some of them, have gone through cost saving times and their scopes quality have gone down. Vortex is one. But Night Force is all about continuing to build quality scopes. They make nothing but quality. Their glass, dials, internals, and tubes are all 1st quality. Go to their web site and you will find they make a lot of styles of scopes; and one to fit your needs. I own several styles from NXS, ATACR, SHV and Target. I absolutely LOVE their zero stops! It truly makes range adjustments so simple , and precise! When it is twilight or dawn, you can see clearly thru a NF. Yes, you can pay a LOT more for a scope for ultra long range target shooting; but do you need? NF will get any job done you need. I could go on but I've said all I can think of now.
Now, about scope quality. Leupold used to be the "gold" standard. Used to be. They also said you don't need 30 mm tubes, because they didn't make 30mm tubes. Now they do. Hum?
When you dial up or for windage, it better go where you intended it to go. If you can't "walk" around a target and come back to the starting point; it ain't a good scope.
I have owned many brands of scopes. Some were good, some not so good. Price, a lot of times, didn't matter. Manufacturers, some of them, have gone through cost saving times and their scopes quality have gone down. Vortex is one. But Night Force is all about continuing to build quality scopes. They make nothing but quality. Their glass, dials, internals, and tubes are all 1st quality. Go to their web site and you will find they make a lot of styles of scopes; and one to fit your needs. I own several styles from NXS, ATACR, SHV and Target. I absolutely LOVE their zero stops! It truly makes range adjustments so simple , and precise! When it is twilight or dawn, you can see clearly thru a NF. Yes, you can pay a LOT more for a scope for ultra long range target shooting; but do you need? NF will get any job done you need. I could go on but I've said all I can think of now.
pavementends
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2017
- Messages
- 128
Maybe 30 years ago my boss was preparing for a bear hunt in Alaska. He was a "best" of everything kind of guy and while showing me his Weatherby with the "best" at the time Swarovski scope we noticed the cross hairs were an x. This was 2 days before he was scheduled to leave. Swarovski customer service was great, sent the scope back to Europe, repaired it, and sent it back with no charge and they paid for the shipping. About 2 months later he had his scope back. I think he took a different rifle and he did get a bear. Moral of the story, even the best products have a failure rate. Hopefully by buying the best the failure rate is lower. It is never 0. Use what ever you have confidence in but anything can fail.
I have a $40 Tasco world class 3x9x40 on my 3006 for 41 years. Never failed. Glass is better right now than a mid tier athlon and leupold I have. Would the internals hold to years of turning for yardage like many scopes today are required I doubt it. I have no doubt NF and some high end scopes have better more reliable parts than many others. And if I went on very expensive hard to get hunts like sheep, Alaska, hard to draw Elk hunts and would need to shoot 500 plus that would make sense. But for my hunting a mid range vortex or leupold is a more sensible purchase. And if I did some how suddenly get a chance at a draw elk I'm betting it will work.
Knight
Well-Known Member
This sight in group at 100yrds was achieved with a 33yr old $112.00 Simmons 4x12 atop a 1891 Argentine Mause.
Knight
Well-Known Member
I don't think it ever has, or ever existed for that matter.
I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.
I get your point, but if a 788 existed in a .277 caliber it would have been a Titus or other wildcat custom rifle. They just weren't built to handle 06 length cases.
Pretty accurate for Buckshot!
Knight
Well-Known Member
I don't think it ever has, or ever existed for that matter.
I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.
I get your point, but if a 788 existed in a .277 caliber it would have been a Titus or other wildcat custom rifle. They just weren't built to handle 06 length cases.
I guess that ragged hole was a slug.Pretty accurate for Buckshot!
True story. Years ago I was asked to prepare a rifle for a moose hunt I believe in Colorado, got his permit online. He was extremely budget oriented. The man had a dog of a Stevens 3006 bolt action he bought at a pawn shop. It looked rough, blueing was bad, had more of a brown rust finish. He needed a budget scope. I boutht him a Simmons Aetec for $99.99 on sale. Weaver rings & mount. I mounted the scope, cleaned the barrel good. (It was so dirty!). Cleaned & oiled the rifle. Started working up a load. Standard new Remington brass, Nosler 180 gr particians. I prepped the brass, eliminated some off-weights & over-sized flash holes, radiused the flash holes, loaded sereral loads. Started testing. Went through about 9 loads. Got the old Stevens shooting 1/2" at 100 yds. Loaded 50 cartridges, marked the best 10, told him to practice with the 40. Hunt with the 10. He practiced on a power-line out to 500 yds on cold days only. I told him if he practiced on warm days, he would over-pressure. Went hunting in his old beat up Toyota truck from South Carolina. He hauled his saws in it when he was cutting pulp-wood. Had a guide & back-packed with three mules into the back country hunting. Shot the moose with his rifle propped on a rock, at 480 yds. One shot, he tumbled down the mountain side. Bullet stopped under the skin on the oppisite side. Brought it home on dry ice. So I know what is needed, regardless of what you have, is skill, preparation & determination. A $99 SImmons is enough, if it has to be.
Huntaddict
Well-Known Member
Clicked the link - looks like every single one of those is done by the same person - who appears to work for that site? Do we feel like that has any bias built in?Rifle Scope Field Evaluations
rokslide.com
If I'm not supposed to link other forums, admin can remove this and hopefully I don't get in too much trouble!
CoyoteConquest
Active Member
Yeah but uncle Sam is the one paying rhe tab. I have plenty of $300 scopes that work awesome.
