Old recipe deemed Unsafe in new manuals. Suggestions?

[ntsqd]

The quality of metal today is not what it was 50 years ago. Rusty stainless anyone? This has probably led to problems with higher chamber pressures. Just a thought but most of my max loads are not in modern loading tables.

[HIJACK] The stainless steels used in firearms is NOT 300 series and is usually 416, which can rust and always has. The very first SST Mini-14 that shop that I worked in got when they first came out was sold to an off-shore commercial fisherman. It came back at the end of the season for cleaning with rust pits in it from shark and fish blood. Very, very early SST firearms used in appropriate SST alloys that didn't rust, but they did not work very well either. Any recall AMT's line of SST 1911's that were well known for galling? Wrong SST alloy chosen.
I would contend that metal quality has gotten better in the last 50 years, but if you buy solely by price then you deserve what you get.[/HIJACK]

Like a lot who've posted in this thread, I've noticed the trend in the lowering of max loads. Unlike some, I figured it was entirely CYA and never looked into it any further. Thank y'all for the education!

 

[lyle2231]

Agree! I've got loads in my journal from 20+ yrs ago that now are overpressured. Didn't used to have a chronograph, so no idea what velocities were back then.
Something has changed? Primers, powder formulation? Don't know.

I say powder formula. I've had the same powder designation, different lot numbers , speed up/slow down .5 to .75 grains .
Old loads = old gun. New loads start over. HTH

 

[Muskrat Outdoors]

Back in the 80's I had a recipe with IMR4350 from Lyman's 46th edition that gave me less than 1/2", 5 shots at 100 yards. According to the book, it was at the Max, but no pressure signs. Used this until late 90's when I retired the rifle.
I like to shoot that rifle again and perhaps try the load in a few others I have. (Its a Magnum round with Remington 9 1/2 Large Rifle Primer, not the magnum primer)

Current loading manuals (and for apple to apple conparison, Lyman's 49th edition) have the Max at a full 6 grains lower. IMR (Hodgdon) claims the powder has not changed.
Should I start at the much lower load and work my way up again? I hate to burn supplies in these market conditions, but Safety is ALWAYS Rule #1.

I would start low, 3 shots per grain of increase, until you get to your old load. If they shoot as well with less powder, why go higher? The load you were useing, you say had no pressure signs so it might be fine? Some books do list some very hot loads. Did you ever see that load printed anyplace else? I loaded some 308 rounds a few years back, that were book loads. They were extremely hot! Primer so flat it looked like one piece of brass! I had trouble getting the action open and tore the extractor through the rim. Had to knock out the brass with a dowel and hammer. Luckily, the gun was not damaged. The load was a MISPRINT!!! YIKES! Now, I always try to find the same load from more than one source.

 

[436]

We have a lot of the same books/ manuals. You have an excellent library Sir!

Thank you. There are more, those are just the ones I've used the most.

 

[Lenny Foffa]

Thanks Bald Hunter, I also have that Hornady Vol 2 Loading book. I use it only as a frame of reference now. I am ashamed to admit, I am actually afraid to use those " Old" 1960's loads , using 2020 powders and primers . Even though they shot so well, with no pressure signs, back in the 70"s. I expect the legal aspect has much to do with the removal of the old max loads, but not knowing for sure what other changes have taken place, is enough to make me fearful. I did use my old 1979 ,270 Weatherby Mag load, to take a whitetail deer at a Georgia Mossy Oak Outfitters camp, and the 21 year old round shot just at well as it did in 1980. Bolt lift was still easy, fired case and primer were just fine. Still have 19 rounds left in that box . Maybe I am just afraid of the boogie man????

 

[Clem Bronkoski]

i use manuals that produce bullets

Actually you use manuals as a reference to produce cartridges.

 

[ntsqd]

I think what was being said there was that he uses the manuals from the bullet mfg's rather than from other sources (powder mfg's, etc.)

 

[SEJohnson73]

New, more accurate methods were discovered to measure pressure and some loads were found to be over pressure. That and lawyers have caused the loads to be reduced. But who knows, the reduced loads may be more accurate.

The methods to test pressure have advanced greatly over the past couple decades. Piezo electronic conformal transducers in minimum specification pressure barrels are much more precise than the earlier copper crusher system. Strain gauges, while less precise than conformal transducers, provide much more robust information than the "web expansion measurement" method. Judging chamber pressure by the amount of plastic deformation of the case web or a copper crusher is simply not as precise as the new pressure measurement systems. I can honestly say I never bumped into a lawyer in the lab during my tenure, but that was over a decade ago. Our endeavor was to produce precise and safe data. (I was involved with the "Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading" as Project Director for 5th Edition and Editor of 6th, 7th, and 8th Edition). On this topic, something Ken Oehler said always stuck with me; "the first "sign of pressure" is the bullet exiting the muzzle." Checking muzzle velocity to verify that it falls within maximum listed velocity for a specific primer/propellant/bullet/barrel length combination is always a wise decision.

 

[baldhunter]

There are also so many variables that can affect the pressure and velocity of a load.First off every rifle is different.The same load is not going to be the same velocity and pressure in all rifles especially different barrel lengths.The closer you load to the lands can give you a pressure spike that can be like adding a grain or two of powder.A rifle with a lot of freebore can allow a little extra powder.A lot of the older manuals data were made from the data from shooting factory rifles.Much of todays is from special test barrels.Bullet length and bullet material also are big factors,making same weight bullets different in velocities and pressure.A manual is a guide and not an exact science.That is why it is recommended to start low and work up your loads.I always use a chronograph when working up my loads.If I'm getting velocities above and beyond published data,even though I not seeing pressure signs,I know I'm headed into the danger zone.

 

[cabelasken]

There are also so many variables that can affect the pressure and velocity of a load.First off every rifle is different.The same load is not going to be the same velocity and pressure in all rifles especially different barrel lengths.The closer you load to the lands can give you a pressure spike that can be like adding a grain or two of powder.A rifle with a lot of freebore can allow a little extra powder.A lot of the older manuals data were made from the data from shooting factory rifles.Much of todays is from special test barrels.Bullet length and bullet material also are big factors,making same weight bullets different in velocities and pressure.A manual is a guide and not an exact science.That is why it is recommended to start low and work up your loads.I always use a chronograph when working up my loads.If I'm getting velocities above and beyond published data,even though I not seeing pressure signs,I know I'm headed into the danger zone.

You are exactly right. I have a handed down 264 win mag that I wanted to work up some loads for so I took two manuals, averaged the heaviest load listed and reduced that by 5 %. However, I didn't have any of the specific bullets listed, so I used one of a different manufacturer, but of the same wt. Primer was different also, but according to the charts, it was not as hot as the one listed in the two manuals. First shot seemed fine except the primer was a little cratered. Second shot was a sticky bolt so I stopped there. Velocity was a little higher than what I expected, about 50 FPS, but the sticky bolt was enough for me. I went back and checked my seating depth and everything else I could think of but they were all OK. Upon checking three other manuals or reference materials I had, the max listed had a 5% variation on recipies and i had used the two with the highest published amounts. I know now to start 10% down max listings, especially if I'm not using the exact same bullet as used for the testing.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Newer reloading manual are reflexing faster twist rates or have to allow for that. I note that in my 220 Swift. I use IMR 4064 powder in that rifle. i use the original Sierra Manual for reloading info. The newest Sierra reduced the powder load and velocity by a several 100fps. The twist rate changed from 1-14 to 1-12. I never had an over pressure with that load. It made me mad. At the same time I feel that gun manufactures are pushing their new rifle out and look at me. Most of the time they compare the new cartridge with older cartridges and show greater velocities. I find that they are comparing a 26" barrel to a 24" barrel. Back when the 22/250 came out. The big push was that the 220 swift burn barrels out in a 1000 round or so. So get a 22/250. Now I read that a lot of the rifles being used today are burning out barrel in 500 to 1000 rounds. Now all my rifle are the older slower twist rates. With the newer twist rates, I guess that there is more chamber pressure being build up with the faster twist rate. So the Manuals are dropping the powder loads down to correct the twist rate barrels. Who known what rifle is going to be used, and what twist it's going to be. So bottom line is they have to play is safe.
The bottom line is I don't throw up my old reloading manuals, and I date all the time, because of newer cartridges being placed on the market.
So I would start out with lower powder charges, and step it up to where you were before, and watching for pressure signs. Not to many round to shot and to if the old load hold true. I feel it will, but that me. So in about 10 rounds you will know where you are at.

 

[asd9055]

Newer reloading manual are reflexing faster twist rates or have to allow for that. I note that in my 220 Swift. I use IMR 4064 powder in that rifle. i use the original Sierra Manual for reloading info. The newest Sierra reduced the powder load and velocity by a several 100fps. The twist rate changed from 1-14 to 1-12. I never had an over pressure with that load. It made me mad. At the same time I feel that gun manufactures are pushing their new rifle out and look at me. Most of the time they compare the new cartridge with older cartridges and show greater velocities. I find that they are comparing a 26" barrel to a 24" barrel. Back when the 22/250 came out. The big push was that the 220 swift burn barrels out in a 1000 round or so. So get a 22/250. Now I read that a lot of the rifles being used today are burning out barrel in 500 to 1000 rounds. Now all my rifle are the older slower twist rates. With the newer twist rates, I guess that there is more chamber pressure being build up with the faster twist rate. So the Manuals are dropping the powder loads down to correct the twist rate barrels. Who known what rifle is going to be used, and what twist it's going to be. So bottom line is they have to play is safe.
The bottom line is I don't throw up my old reloading manuals, and I date all the time, because of newer cartridges being placed on the market.
So I would start out with lower powder charges, and step it up to where you were before, and watching for pressure signs. Not to many round to shot and to if the old load hold true. I feel it will, but that me. So in about 10 rounds you will know where you are at.

Good catch with the twist rates. I just did a quick comparison for my particular rifle and load. 46th edition, 26" barrel, 1-12 twist. 49th edition, 26" barrel, 1-10 twist. Plus I believe the newer primers are a bit hotter.
Just got a pound of IMR4350, I will be testing when the temperatures drop a little more in Texas. Don't like sweating when I am shooting

 

[pdshooter2]

reloading manuals are GUIDES, not BIBLES.
THEY DID NOT TEST YOUR RIFLE.
start low and work up to a safe IN YOUR GUN LOAD