Nosler long range accbond and my experience.

[Pdvdh]

Re: Nosler long range accubond and my experience.

If this bullets works for someone and this thread helps out great. I hoped it did. I am no longer taking place in the b.s of information I experience to be twisted into whatever someone believes.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the Nosler long range accubonds. You picked on one tough deer! They do seem to get tougher after weathering a shot that doesn't quickly put them down and out. I think the adrenalin kicks into overdrive and the animal's physiology goes into survival mode, making them much more shock resistant - and enabling them to endure some incredibly damaging blows.

By the way, I think your pre-hunt preparation and markmanship on this buck were both good.

 

[Divcap]

Unfornately all of these elk where shot at last light in not very convienent locations so I did not have the time to look for what was left of the projectiles. I had every intention of doing so, it just didnt happen.

I am curious what people think about not being able to push the LRAB at velocities that a Berger bullet would love. I wonder if by thinning the jacket out on the front end, it might not stabilize at faster velocities or maybe I just need to try a different powder.

Any suggestions would be welcomed

 

[elkaholic]

Unfornately all of these elk where shot at last light in not very convienent locations so I did not have the time to look for what was left of the projectiles. I had every intention of doing so, it just didnt happen.

I am curious what people think about not being able to push the LRAB at velocities that a Berger bullet would love. I wonder if by thinning the jacket out on the front end, it might not stabilize at faster velocities or maybe I just need to try a different powder.

Any suggestions would be welcomed

I'm not sure more velocity is your friend with that bullet. In the tests I ran, they expand too quickly as it is. There is always a compromise with bullets. I think Nosler tried so hard to make a long range expanding bullet (and they did) that they over did it a little. They have a large hollow cavity PLUS the ballistic tip to get it all started. This, coupled with a thin nose, is a recipe for very quick expansion. When this takes place, you get a lot of frontal area in a hurry, which cuts down on penetration. If you still get enough penetration, that's ok, but more velocity will make it worse. Frankly, on the tests I ran, I think your penetration on the elk was better than I might have guessed. It was probably because you were shooting 210's (more mass) and I was testing .270 (150's). I think if Nosler would leave out the large hollow point, run the lead to the ballistic tip, and leave the rest alone, they would actually have a better bullet for magnum velocity and it would still perform at ANY reasonable distance. They expanded easily down to 1300' in my tests! That gets you far beyond the range of most shooters. My opinion....Rich
p.s. A Berger is a completely different animal and reacts a lot differently upon impact. In my opinion, it will not act quite as predictably as a ballistic tip, but with the tiny meplat, penetrates a few inches and then usually comes unglued (like a bomb)! When they work, they are devastating. Also (IMO) they will not expand at any where near the minimal velocity needed to expand a LRAB......Rich

 

[Divcap]

Thanks, I guess velocity doesn't really matter when you have a .730 BC. I'm a little hesitant to shoot an elk in the shoulder for fear of them not penetrating well enough.

 

[elkaholic]

Thanks, I guess velocity doesn't really matter when you have a .730 BC. I'm a little hesitant to shoot an elk in the shoulder for fear of them not penetrating well enough.

I am surprised that you felt the listed b.c. was accurate? Most of us feel that it is greatly inflated (maybe more like .680).
I think your fears over shooting an elk in the shoulder may be well founded. Congrats on your success and for posting your results.....Rich

 

[Michael Eichele]

I am surprised that you felt the listed b.c. was accurate? Most of us feel that it is greatly inflated (maybe more like .680).
I think your fears over shooting an elk in the shoulder may be well founded. Congrats on your success and for posting your results.....Rich

IMHO, .680 is still way too high.

I'm not going to through numbers out but side by side comparisons over double chronies showed it to be about 2-3% lower than the 208 Amax. Still excellent for a bonded hunting bullet!

 

[Kennibear]

Two friends of mine had a similar experience but at the other end of the tape measure, up close.

Both are good shots and "G" (name withheld) is one of the best game shots I have ever known. "G" is one of the first users of a laser range finder. He makes single shot drops on elk at 600yds regularly. "S" is no slouch either.

"S" takes first shot at a 4 pt bull maybe 70yds Max. Both of them hit the bull with a total of 5 shots and it heads into the thick with no blood trail. Gone. The load? 300RUM with Swift Siroccos, "S" was using factory and "G" handloads. They did not miss. They returned about 4 hours later having heard more shots in the area the bull dove into. Hunter that got the bull said the bull had gotten up and started to stagger down the hill. While dressing the bull out he found the heart/ lung area had been shot up pretty good. Four hours after absorbing five rockets from two 300RUM's that bull was still going.

Moral of the story: We cannot predict bullet behavior to a certainty. This time the clear indication (no blood trail) is the bullets failed (went to pieces) up close. Nobody thinks Swift makes lousy game bullets. But the other factor is one tough bull elk. "S" used a 270 before he switched to the 300 RUM. He never failed to drop his elk with that caliber. Imagine his surprise with the first elk shot with his 300RUM.

To quote an old English PH in Africa: "Why do I use a 600 Nitro Express? Because they don't make a bloody 700 Nitro Express, Mate!!!"

 

[MMERSS]

Interesting discussion. I've been shooting Berger bullets for the past few years and mostly happy with shot placement. (all 300 OTMs or 230 Target). They performed as expected with the thicker jackets and in most instances quite well. On one shot this year the Berger connected with a deer just above the shoulder and below the spine. The bullet did not open up due to the short tissue travel distance and penciled thru the animal. The deer ran off but was recovered. I thought a bullet allowing for initial rapid expansion then holding together would have been a more suitable option for the shot placement on this deer. LRABs came to mind. Would the LRAB with rapid expansion cause a spinal injury dropping this deer? I believe much more likely with the LRAB than the Berger. I'm seriously considering loading LRABs for deer and antelope and keeping the OTMs/Targets for the elk guns. I'll be developing a load for a 7 RUM using the 175 LRABs. Quick initial expansion? I'm expecting this. Will there still be a portion of the bullet left to travel thru the animal after impact? I'm expecting this. I'm not aware of a perfect bullet for every situation and especially the perfect bullet for game sized antelope to elk.

 

[Fotis]

Weren't the Long Range Accubombs supposed to be the Berger killer and make Bergers obsolete

No Sir.

The LRAB are suppose to give LR hunters a choice. In this case a premium bonded bullet with a high BC. In my opinion I would take these over bergers anyday based on on-game performance.

The "will not expand for 3" and then explode in the vitals" performance of a berger doesnot do it for me. Just a personal choice.

 

[WildRose]

Interesting discussion. I've been shooting Berger bullets for the past few years and mostly happy with shot placement. (all 300 OTMs or 230 Target). They performed as expected with the thicker jackets and in most instances quite well. On one shot this year the Berger connected with a deer just above the shoulder and below the spine. The bullet did not open up due to the short tissue travel distance and penciled thru the animal. The deer ran off but was recovered. I thought a bullet allowing for initial rapid expansion then holding together would have been a more suitable option for the shot placement on this deer. LRABs came to mind. Would the LRAB with rapid expansion cause a spinal injury dropping this deer? I believe much more likely with the LRAB than the Berger. I'm seriously considering loading LRABs for deer and antelope and keeping the OTMs/Targets for the elk guns. I'll be developing a load for a 7 RUM using the 175 LRABs. Quick initial expansion? I'm expecting this. Will there still be a portion of the bullet left to travel thru the animal after impact? I'm expecting this. I'm not aware of a perfect bullet for every situation and especially the perfect bullet for game sized antelope to elk.

It can help but you still have to be close enough to the spine to get the desired effect. Good expansion will always increase your odds vs one that pencils through.

Bullets that are designed though to give you that rapid expansion however can also shell out completely like little bombs if they hit something solid up close because of the very high level of retained energy.

Neither the LRAB nor the Sirocco's are designed for close shots, they are designed to give you the desired expansion at medium and long ranges.

Again we're back to the "there's no magic bullet" conundrum. I had similar luck with some Sicrocco II 180gr 30 cal's from a 300Rum and 130's from the 260 on sub hundred yard shots. I can't blame the bullets for that, It should have been expected. They didn't explode, they just flattened out completely and didn't exit on WT deer at close range. They did make it into the vitals with massive disruption but had the animals been able to run tracking them would have been awfully tough due to the lack of a blood trail.

What we might as shooters want to consider doing is to adjust our POI depending on range. Go for the Shoulders on the longer shots and go for the behind the shoulders heart/lung shots at shorter ranges with the Sirocco and LRAB's or simply set minimum ranges at which we are going to shoot period.

This is one reason why for most of my shooting I stick to the good old Interbond because I've just not had these types of issues with them at closer ranges.

The other answer is to set our LR rigs up solely for LR and have another handy for the short work and loads appropriate for each.

I know that for myself that's generally how I stay set up with the 6.8spc mini 14 in the truck along with carrying the .264wm, along with one of seven's or 300's.

For the horseback hunts I have planned for the big guys the next few years I've just made my mind up that I'll carry the 45/70 saddle gun at the ready and the 300Rum riding securely on the horse behind me so that I don't find myself in such a situation where I"m genuinely concerned about trying to make a close shot on a monster if it presents itself.

 

[elkaholic]

Interesting discussion. I've been shooting Berger bullets for the past few years and mostly happy with shot placement. (all 300 OTMs or 230 Target). They performed as expected with the thicker jackets and in most instances quite well. On one shot this year the Berger connected with a deer just above the shoulder and below the spine. The bullet did not open up due to the short tissue travel distance and penciled thru the animal. The deer ran off but was recovered. I thought a bullet allowing for initial rapid expansion then holding together would have been a more suitable option for the shot placement on this deer. LRABs came to mind. Would the LRAB with rapid expansion cause a spinal injury dropping this deer? I believe much more likely with the LRAB than the Berger. I'm seriously considering loading LRABs for deer and antelope and keeping the OTMs/Targets for the elk guns. I'll be developing a load for a 7 RUM using the 175 LRABs. Quick initial expansion? I'm expecting this. Will there still be a portion of the bullet left to travel thru the animal after impact? I'm expecting this. I'm not aware of a perfect bullet for every situation and especially the perfect bullet for game sized antelope to elk.

In the minimal testing that I did with the 270 150 gr, there was always a portion left, but it was pretty small compared to the original AB and I never fired them at mag velocity....Rich

 

[Nomosendero]

From the video, it looks to me like the (first) broadside shot was likely just over the lungs and below the spine; in that void of flesh that contains no vitals. I've hit an animal or two there in years past, and the chase was on. Not sure I can blame bullet performance for that. I have also noticed from such experiences that when the first hit is not through vitals, it seems to take an inordinate number of follow up hits to dispatch the animal. Perhaps that's the result of the animal's body having time to generate a tremendous amount of adrenaline under those circumstances. I have not fired any LRs yet, but from the photos and video, I can't see anything wrong with the bullets' terminal performance. I would be very pleased to recover such a perfectly mushroomed slug as the one in the photo.

Possibly the best explanation I have seen in this thread.

 

[TOM H]

No Sir.

The LRAB are suppose to give LR hunters a choice. In this case a premium bonded bullet with a high BC. In my opinion I would take these over bergers anyday based on on-game performance.

The "will not expand for 3" and then explode in the vitals" performance of a berger doesnot do it for me. Just a personal choice.

Whoa! Just a personal choice are you sure about that? Last year you mentioned that you became a moderator on the Nosler forum.

You have over 18,000 post on the Nolser forum since 2004
Nosler Reloading Forum • Login

kind of like asking fox to watch the hen house. I'm a member on the Nosler forum also and I value your opinion on Nolser bullets since that's what I mostly shoot. I was just over their yesterday and Dr Mike help me out. I think in all honesty before you judge other bullets and make comment you should inform them about your ties to Nolser. I'm not sure how many read your post here about being a moderator and that came out because of the Nosler ABLR bullet topic.

 

[Nomosendero]

Re: Nosler long range accubond and my experience.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the Nosler long range accubonds. You picked on one tough deer! They do seem to get tougher after weathering a shot that doesn't quickly put them down and out. I think the adrenalin kicks into overdrive and the animal's physiology goes into survival mode, making them much more shock resistant - and enabling them to endure some incredibly damaging blows.

By the way, I think your pre-hunt preparation and markmanship on this buck were both good.

And this too concerning what can happen if the first shot doesn't do the trick. I have seen that one played out a time or two.