Node with Copper Bullets?

[coyotezapper]

No experience with CE but 20+ years with Barnes starting with the original X. Barnes bullets like to jump and sometimes its over .100" so don't be afraid to jump them. CE has a good reputation so I wouldn't give up on them yet especially if you already have them.

 

[Troutslayer2]

That is a pretty small jump window to be experimenting in.

 

[coyotezapper]

That is a pretty small jump window to be experimenting in.

That number is 100 thousandths. Most people dont test past 30.

 

[skipglo]

Reloading for a 338 Lapua AI. Historically I end up going to a Berger OTM which has treated me well and I have achieved in the twos and threes SDs with it shooting the 300g OTM at just over 2900 ft./s
Getting stationed back in California and as everyone knows you must use Copper for Hunting (Please no comments on how California sucks just looking for help here).

It's always been difficult to find a node using copper bullets, specifically cutting edge bullets with the lzr and MTH.

1) so currently trying to find a node with these bullets: .338 252gr, single feed MTH.

2) What I've known for years and what I just confirmed with Cutting Edge is you try to find a node 002" off the lands or you skip to .025" and try to find a node in that area.

So far I've tried .001" off the lands and chronoed the following: max 3100, MIN 3056 AVG 3081 SD 14.8

Then .006" off the lands: max 3100 MIN 3079 average 3087. SD 11.3

Then .011" of the lands: Max 3095 Min 3078 AVG 3088 SD 7.6

Picture starts with the top group mentioned on the piece of paper and works down in the order that I wrote it down on this message. Don't ask me why the number of shot groups are different, my first test batch was seven shots and then I realize I need to start smaller so I don't waste so much time money and components to find a node. Will stick with four shots until I find something worthwhile and then do larger test batches with that. As of now it looks like the last group has the lowest SD of 7.6 but as you can see still a vertical spread rather than a nice horizontal group.

Obviously not done, I'm going to try exactly .002" off the lands and then jump to .025", however I am kind of curious to work my way out to the .025" by using .005" increments until I get out to the .025" mark.

Anyone have conventional wisdom with these copper bullets or any copper bullets in general as far as finding a good node? Should I mess around closer with the lands on a few more test batches? Try touching the lands? And yes I'm using for hunting and no I don't care about single feeding.

Thanks
Joden

Sorry here....but I am struggling to see WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE BOTTOM GROUP....call me Old cause I am.....buuuuut?

 

[seidersjoden]

Sorry here....but I am struggling to see WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE BOTTOM GROUP....call me Old cause I am.....buuuuut?

The group itself isn't bad however the fact that the extreme spread and SD isn't very good according to the chronograph, means that the group size won't be very good at distance.

 

[coyotezapper]

The group itself isn't bad however the fact that the extreme spread and SD isn't very good according to the chronograph, means that the group size won't be very good at distance.

Possible problems is neck tension, wrong powder charge, primer or even wrong powder. Can you list all of your load details?

bullet and weight
powder and charge, fps
bbl length
oal
primer
method of sizing brass

Every detail you can think of will help, CE bullets are used in ELR comps so they have to be somewhat easy to tune.

 

[skipglo]

The group itself isn't bad however the fact that the extreme spread and SD isn't very good according to the chronograph, means that the group size won't be very good at distance.

Thank you....I overlooked S.D....told you I was old!

 

[seidersjoden]

Possible problems is neck tension, wrong powder charge, primer or even wrong powder. Can you list all of your load details?

bullet and weight
powder and charge, fps
bbl length
oal
primer
method of sizing brass

Every detail you can think of will help, CE bullets are used in ELR comps so they have to be somewhat easy to tune.

• 104.9g RL 33
• Lapua Brass
• 252g MTH Cutting Edge bullet
• Fed 215 Magnum Match Primer
• Cases were all trimmed to same length, chamfered and deburred
• Each piece of brass had 3 firings on them
• .001" off the lands: max 3100, MIN 3056 AVG 3081 SD 14.8
• .006" off the lands: max 3100 MIN 3079 AVG 3087. SD 11.3
• .011" of the lands: Max 3095 Min 3078 AVG 3088 SD 7.6

I've got 3 more groups reloaded at .002, .004, and .006" off the lands, we'll see how they work. If no luck then I'll jump back out to .011" off the lands like the group above with the best SD, and increase jump from there. I just want to play closer to the lands before I give up since as we all know, best results are typically less jump but there's always exceptions to that rule.

Thanks for all the help
-Joden

 

[coyotezapper]

• 104.9g RL 33
• Lapua Brass
• 252g MTH Cutting Edge bullet
• Fed 215 Magnum Match Primer
• Cases were all trimmed to same length, chamfered and deburred
• Each piece of brass had 3 firings on them
• .001" off the lands: max 3100, MIN 3056 AVG 3081 SD 14.8
• .006" off the lands: max 3100 MIN 3079 AVG 3087. SD 11.3
• .011" of the lands: Max 3095 Min 3078 AVG 3088 SD 7.6

I've got 3 more groups reloaded at .002, .004, and .006" off the lands, we'll see how they work. If no luck then I'll jump back out to .011" off the lands like the group above with the best SD, and increase jump from there. I just want to play closer to the lands before I give up since as we all know, best results are typically less jump but there's always exceptions to that rule.

Thanks for all the help
-Joden

Let me run the numbers but first off I see that the bullets may be seated too close. Also it is almost impossible to seat .001" off and be consistent, there are too many variables. Like I said I have noot worked with CE bullets but I have with other solids and they need jump to delay the peak pressure curve. If you notice your numbers get better as the bullet jumps more. And an SD of 7.6 is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[coyotezapper]

• 104.9g RL 33
• Lapua Brass
• 252g MTH Cutting Edge bullet
• Fed 215 Magnum Match Primer
• Cases were all trimmed to same length, chamfered and deburred
• Each piece of brass had 3 firings on them
• .001" off the lands: max 3100, MIN 3056 AVG 3081 SD 14.8
• .006" off the lands: max 3100 MIN 3079 AVG 3087. SD 11.3
• .011" of the lands: Max 3095 Min 3078 AVG 3088 SD 7.6

I've got 3 more groups reloaded at .002, .004, and .006" off the lands, we'll see how they work. If no luck then I'll jump back out to .011" off the lands like the group above with the best SD, and increase jump from there. I just want to play closer to the lands before I give up since as we all know, best results are typically less jump but there's always exceptions to that rule.

Thanks for all the help
-Joden

One more thing on the jump statement you made. Less jump is best has been dispelled many times over. Benchrest is the only place where they seem to still do this and they are even going away from it.

 

[coyotezapper]

• 104.9g RL 33
• Lapua Brass
• 252g MTH Cutting Edge bullet
• Fed 215 Magnum Match Primer
• Cases were all trimmed to same length, chamfered and deburred
• Each piece of brass had 3 firings on them
• .001" off the lands: max 3100, MIN 3056 AVG 3081 SD 14.8
• .006" off the lands: max 3100 MIN 3079 AVG 3087. SD 11.3
• .011" of the lands: Max 3095 Min 3078 AVG 3088 SD 7.6

I've got 3 more groups reloaded at .002, .004, and .006" off the lands, we'll see how they work. If no luck then I'll jump back out to .011" off the lands like the group above with the best SD, and increase jump from there. I just want to play closer to the lands before I give up since as we all know, best results are typically less jump but there's always exceptions to that rule.

Thanks for all the help
-Joden

Case capacity?
BBL length?

 

[Troutslayer2]

That number is 100 thousandths. Most people dont test past 30.

I wouldn't accept a load that shot great at .006" and bad at .011. Are you talking most people shooting this projectile or just in general?

Obviously not done, I'm going to try exactly .002" off the lands and then jump to .025", however I am kind of curious to work my way out to the .025" by using .005" increments until I get out to the .025" mark.

I recommend listening to the Modern Day Sniper Podcast episode 14. That really opened my eyes about seating depth and made me reexamine my whole load development process. Other than that, dude, you are shooting good groups with a single digit SD. How far down the rabbit hole you gonna go chasing a couple of FPS better SD across your loads? How many people on this forum are shooting SD in the 1,2,3? How far you have to shoot for 4 or 5 FPS to cause a miss? Also- how many rounds is going to take you to shoot a group at every .002" increment between .002" and .025"?

 

[seidersjoden]

Let me run the numbers but first off I see that the bullets may be seated too close. Also it is almost impossible to seat .001" off and be consistent, there are too many variables. Like I said I have noot worked with CE bullets but I have with other solids and they need jump to delay the peak pressure curve. If you notice your numbers get better as the bullet jumps more. And an SD of 7.6 is nothing to sneeze at.

I agree completely with you, and I heard the same regarding the jump and lowering the pressure. I don't have a lot of hope for this next batch but like I said I want to cross all my T's before jumping further.

Thanks for the help.

 

[seidersjoden]

Case capacity?
BBL length?

Don't know case capacity. Never cared about that personally. 24" Bartlien.